Upgrading sub to get a live feel.

If you want a sub that actually does go to 20hz, find a used Mackie HR120...they were designed for studio use as opposed to their live sound stuff (and they’re around although not made anymore)...I found one in a local music store that sells used gear and they had no idea how to use the thing. About 150 bucks later I brought it home and stuck it in my music studio...amazing...I use a couple of REL subs in my listening rig, and hooked up the Mackie in that system out of curiosity (no small feat as it weighs 92 lbs) and realized I really don’t need 19hz in there and prefer the main amp signal driven RELs, but man...a great sub. 500 A/B watts, and a plethora of adjustments available...12" down-firing EAW monster woofer, 12" front firing radiator, balanced and single ended inputs. Get four of ’em!

Dear @thewatcher101 : what @mijostyn posted about the 4367 crossover frequency is truly relevant and a main parameter to take in count.

It crossover 700hz and that means the the IMD level distorions are really high in the mid range and up to it due to the developed harmonics.

The main target to add true subwoofers to any passive speakers is that the IMD generated for the speakers woofers goes really down and when this happens your room/system quality whole performance goes to the " sky ": nothing less, you will discovery a new quality level performance even if you think you know very well the resolution of your room/system.

A " side line " adding true subwoofers is that we can get true low bass frequency range to honor the MUSIC.
Rigth now you don’t have neither of those trgets.

In any room/system MUSIC belongs to both frequency extremes. As better the overall bass range and HF range as better not only mid range but way better whole system resolution and system listening quality


You can read something about here and why:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

Now, if you normally use your system to listening MUSIC then normally you listen MUSIC at one seat position because at mid range/HF ranges we can have perfect response in those frequency ranges at one the seat position.

For that you only need two true subwoofers ( the ones that goes down to 16 h. ).

The Harman Group ( JBL, ML, Revel, etc, etc. ) proved that through scientific research. Here the link:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00da/51387c572cfd27c0256cb15e44e976a1a72e.pdf

from those white papers:

" " Four subwoofer at the wall midpoints (configuration 11) was the best practical configuration in terms of MSV. Two subwoofers at opposing wall midpoints (configuration 6) was nearly as good and also offered stronger low-frequency support. These results appear to be generalizable to reasonably dimensioned rectangular spaces [19] . ""

The manufacturer of DBA solution ( Audiokinesis. ) posted in other subwoofer thread:

""" You can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs. ""

No one needs more than two true subwoofers for one seat position. The key words are: true subwoofers. Not the ones you own or the ones noble100 owns.

Wait for your 4376, do it a favor and don’t waste your time or money before those 4376. Patience is always worth to do it for its rewardings to collect.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS;

R.

Some points about the Swarm/Distributed Bass Array approach that have been made repeatedly, but obviously due to not sinking in need to keep being made, over and over again:

1. Its not THE sub. Its HOW MANY subs.

2. More small cheap subs is far better than a few expensive subs.

3. This is so true that even really small subs that take up hardly any room, ie can fit easily under furniture, will work better and take up less space than the normal huge sub everyone thinks they need.

4. The same amount of money spent on four subs will outperform the same amount of money spent on just one.

5. Yes even if its not very much money.

6. Sub (note: singular) is crucially important.

7. Subs (note: plural) by the time you get to 4, where they go hardly even matters.

8. Everyone who has actually tried it knows what they’re talking about and can’t stop talking about how great it works.

9. Everyone who has not actually experienced it should maybe every time they are about to write something on the subject first write: Of course I have no actual experience to base this on, BUT....

mijostyn:
"I would rather two high quality subs than four cheap ones. Room control is a must for thewatcher with two subs as his room is very square. Make yourself a plan and stick to it. Messing around for the sake of messing around is a waste of money. "

Hello miijostyn,

Even though I’ve learned it is true that 4 cheap subs if properly positioned and configured will typically deliver better in-room bass performance than two subs regardless of their quality, I believe you’ve confused the current $500 half-off sale price of thewatcher101’s subs he’s already using, two high quality SVS SB-1000s, and assumed they are cheap, low quality subs which they definitely are not..

It’s also becoming more apparent that you have a lack of knowledge and experience concerning the distributed bass array (DBA) concept in general. I’m basing this on your comment that the OP would need to use larger and more powerful JL F212 subs on a previous post and your comment that room control is required on your last post, neither of which are true.
My previously proposed plan for the OP to use a 3-4 sub DBA system is based on my belief that home audio systems are best optimized in performance by considering them as two systems, a bass system and a system for everything else, due to the very different manner that the very long bass and much shorter midrange/treble soundwaves behave in any given room.
I recommend first getting the bass sounding good (powerful, dynamic, smooth, detailed, with a seemingly effortless and unlimited quality and seamlessly blended with the main speakers) because it’s typically the most difficult to achieve in most rooms. The best method I’m currently aware of to get the bass sounding good in virtually any sized and shaped room, even in an acoustically challenging square one like the OP’s room, is a 3-4 sub DBA system.
The lowest octave on music is about 16-32 Hz with the audible range extending down to 20 Hz and anything lower only felt and not heard. The ability of a bass system to accurately reproduce deep bass tones down to at least 20 Hz creates a solid bass foundation that a lot of music is built upon and on which the OP can build the remainder of the audible frequency spectrum, reproduced by his main speakers, upon.
Utilizing a 3-4 sub DBA system also allows the OP to extend the deep bass response performance by adding one or two PB-1000s subs (with a rated bass extension limit of 19 Hz) to his two existing SB-1000s (with a rated bass extension limit of 24 Hz).
Just to be clear to you and the OP about 3-4 sub DBA systems:
-There’s no lack of bass output or dynamics since bass duties will be shared between 3 or 4 subs and you can adjust to your preferences using the volume and crossover frequency controls on each. You definitely do not need to purchase higher quality and more expensive subs.
-There’s absolutely no mics, room correction, parametric equalization, bass room treatments or anything else required.
- The main reason the DBA concept works so well is the psychoacoustic principles involved which take advantage of how our brains naturally process bass soundwaves below about 100 Hz.
-The quality, agility, smoothness and speed of the bass produced by 3-4 sub DBA systems allows them to be seamlessly integrated with virtually any pair of main speakers you currently own or will own in the future.

Hopefully, the OP will check back in soon and let us know his thoughts and impressions.

Tim

I ordered two PB-1000 subs and will work with two my SB-1000, they are free returns for 45 days, so there is no harm, with wonderful upsides, and will report with my experience.

I’ve also found a store around me with JBL 4367 to demo, and I will see how much low end those speakers will produce, and if my current setup can compete.

JBL 4367 do lack the lowest octave, because of their driver design, and will need subs regardless. 

Check back in a month.

Thanks Tim.