NOS Grace F9E question

Raul, Neither you nor I can score points with Chakster.  But I am going to try to find one of his preferred Grace cartridges just to see for myself.  Have you heard either of those two that he likes so much?

Chak, Please read what Raul wrote about the possible benefits of re-tipping, if in the process one also upgrades the stylus shape or the cantilever material.  You have devalued elliptical styli per se, yourself.  So why wouldn't it be potentially beneficial to replace an elliptical with a line contact or some other more "modern" shape, in the process of re-tipping?  

So I just went on eBay to see if there were any Grace Level II or F14 cartridges for sale there.  Chak, are you selling the F14 "new needle" (only) on eBay?  Someone in Russia is. There's a Level II for sale from within the US; it looks awful, and the dude wants more than $1000 for it!

@lewm

So why wouldn’t it be potentially beneficial to replace an elliptical with a line contact or some other more "modern" shape, in the process of re-tipping?

I want to hear and judge only original cartridges in perfect condition (from any manufacturer), if i need a better stylus or cantilever for my Gace MM i will do my best to find the original (NOS) with the best stylus/cantilever. I’ve had bad experience with refurbished mm cartridges, never again!

I do considering myself as a collector of genuine carts only, i will never buy any refurbished cartridge or any re-tipped cartridge when it comes to vintage carts of any type (MM or MC).

I often see how people are lying about condition of the cartridges they are selling on ebay, offering refurbished carts with aftermarket parts (completely different cantilevers or glued styli of the different shape and different mass) as the original. Someone even sold me refurbished carts as the original and never mentioned that they are refurbished. I just don’t want this experience anymore in my life. Re-tippers work or suspension repair does not looks nice under microscope compared to the original factory made genuine products. This is not for me.

In my opinion retipping/refurbishing service of some mega rare MM only make sense if there is no chance to find the original stylus replacement.

Refurbished vintage cartridge does not have any collectors value and the sound of such hybrid has nothing to do with the original sound. Some people see it as an upgrade, but i don’t see it like that. I believe that top quality vintage MM cartridges are superior to anything new and i am using only genuine carts so far. I would pay more for a NOS (sealed in the box) original than for refurbished cart from VdH or any other reputable master.

P.S. remember jp jones story about his Technics top of the line cartridge, the end of the story was pretty sad when someone tried to "refresh" the suspension of that rare cart. No one can guarantee the result of that job. This is not for me, never ever in my life i will send some rare working cartridge for some "fine tuning" or retip or whatever" to anyone.

The thing that's great about Audiogon forums or any forum, is that we don't all have to agree. Some aren't as politically polished regarding their comments, some are full of it, some just floating around like me trying to absorb knowledge.  By know means am I an expert when it comes to audio. I think I have nice stuff, anyway it sounds great and I know more than my little brother.  

Whether or not we all agree, is not why I visit Audiogon forums. I can tell you for a fact that @chakster  has some fantastic carts, as I've heard them and thanks to him, own a couple that I would call winners, a couple carts that are very good and a couple that I consider ultimate. 

It's all about perception. No losers or jokes in my collection. Only winners. 

Dear @lewm: First than all and when speak of Grace ( in this case the F9 that runs Discrete-4 too. ) we are speaking of vintage cartridges and it does not matters if it’s Grace, AT, Acutex, Technics or what ever key word is vintage.

Even if the vintage cartridge is NOS the problem belongs always ( it does not matters if you or me can be aware of it, that we can’t detect it. ) at the cartridge suspension because all those years pass-on. Cantilevers and stylus tips suffer a lot less over the time because were not deteriorate as the cartridge suspension.

In the years I started the MM thread I never wanted to change anything in the stock vintage cartridges even I was against the swift between some models in a manufacturer series ( Frankstein cartridges. ) and was precisely with the Acutec 315LPM that I learned about. The cartridge was " refreshed " by VDH, same cantilever/stylus and the imp´rovement was a huge one. When I did it the same with the Technics EPC 100CMK4 the cartridge return and its performance was improved.

Other than fine tunning cartridge suspension the change in catilever/stylus always will be makes a higher quality performance levels.

In other thread some ( I think in the MM one. I can’t remember for sure. ) of us discussed the best material for cantilevers and that was solid Boron, its characteristics are way superior to aluminum, titanium, berilyum and the like. Why solid over the pipe type? well the hollow in a cantilever produces/increment resonances against the solid material. Even when the LOMC manufacturers still can found out boron pipe always choosed solid boron .
In some of my cartridges I did it and solid boron is way less resonant.
Same pass with berilyum that even when still existed manufacturers gone for boron. Technics did it with one of its tonearm when choosed boron over berilyum but in its top cartridge was the same.
We can take any vintage MM cartridge and retip it with boron cantilever and no matter what always will performs with way higer quality levels, always.

Where belongs/resides the truw /real value with the vintage MM cartridges: to its cartridge " motors " and design quality excecution. Not to the cantilever or the Stereohedron stylus shape. If you take your 981LZ and send to retip with boron and MR or Ogura like stylus shape you will have an outstanding performer, same for any vintage MM cartridge.

I don’t know you but I’m always looking how to improve the quality performance levels of what I own and latter the option to add/change something new in my room audio system

As always in audio all depends on ignorance/knoledge level and each one priorities and mine is to stay truer to the recording no matter what. This is my main target.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.