F9 is not a winner in the Grace line, it’s a good cartridge, but only a STARTER for those who’re looking for a magical Grace Sound. The best are F14 and LEVEL II series, only those top of the line models i can call the best MM. Grace has improved everything, for example the coil wires in LC-OFC versions, then gave us the best cantilevers (such as BR/Boron Pipe and BE/Beryllium) and the best styli (such as MicroRidge / MR). The F9 (designed in the 70’s) is a joke compared to the LEVEL II or F14 (designed in the 80s).
There is an interesting model between F9 and F14 and LEVEL II, this is F12 MM |
Everyone can find more about rare Grace models here https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/grace-level-ll F-9 is a good cartridge for sure and we have to be patient when it comes to some uber rare models which can be called ULTIMATE Anyway F-9 is somewhere in the middle of the route for people who’re looking for ultimate MM from this brand F-7, F-8, F-9, F-12, F-14, LEVEL II ... and Grace Signature Asakura’s Two is also MM based on F-12 design. Some people think that F-9 is a winner, but it is only a third step in the evolution of Grace moving magnet cartridges. There are 3-4 more steps up with significant upgrades that Grace designers did with the basic F-9 series which was introduced in the 70’s. But Grace designers in Japan have been working for another 10 years to make their cartridges much better and more competitive with some other top MM cartridges from that era. Some serious cartridges were introduced in the 80’s. Comparing F-9 to F14 or LEVEL II is like comparing F-7 to F-9, the difference is huge (also price difference) !!! P.S. Grace also made some killer MC cartridges |
@rauliruegas yes the F9 is a winner tells other thing makes no-sense and bortding to the stupidity. "Stupidity" is your comments these days, you missed the train long time ago and i have no idea when you have listened to any records with Grace cartridge last time, also you have never mentioned the models i am talking about here. F9 the one that grace choosed to be its " horse warrior " not the other Grace models. That’s why it was discontinued by Grace when they made a better upgraded models ? This is a forum to contribute, not to repead your statement from 15 years ago. The "winner" is the best cartridge, mediorce cartridge can not be a winner in a competition. Maybe if you are alone in the marathon then you will be a winner, but if 10 more people will join the marathon you will be a loser. We’re talking about Grace and NO OTHER manufacturer, if you have not tried top of the line Grace models then it is not my problem, Raul. Coil wire, pins material, cantilever, stylus, overall design of F-9 is inferiour compared to improved F12, F14, Level II and Asakura’s TWO models. Only if you have nothing to compare from the Grace own line then F-9 can win, but only without its competitors. Grace F14 and LEVEL II original styli are superior compared to SoundSmith ugly replacements. Grace offered a bunch of different styli for F14 and LEVEL II: Beryllium, Boron, Ceramic, Alluminum with many different diamonds. Nodoby who own original Grace F14 or LEVEL II needs a SoundSmith. F9 is a good cartridge, but it’s not a winner, sorry I think i’ve tried all F9 models, the best is not the Elliptical F-9E, but the F-9F (Discrete-4) with Shibata stylus, the F-9U (Utility-4) with LineContact stylus is the next. Grace Ruby comes with elliptical stylus (same as F-9E) and can not compete with Shibata F-9F (Discrete-4). All these models are inferior compared to LEVEL II or F-14 with much better cantilevers/styli etc. I’ve collecting Grace cartridges (MM and MC) and my listening experience with them is only 2 years old, so fresh. Your post about Grace are 15 years old and you’re still not improved your Grace Experience if you think the F-9 is a winner. Please go and listen to your digital instead. |
@lewm Chakster, please tell us what phono stage, amplifier, and speakers you are using to make your unequivocal judgements.
i’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll say again that I don’t think one can pick out all the greatest cartridges simply by noting the elements of their construction. If one could, this hobby would be less vexing and more boring. The F9 and the Ruby are two examples of cartridges that have no right to sound as good as they do, given the materials of which they are made. You’d better buy F-14 LC-OFC with BR/MR stylus or the LEVEL II LC-OFC in the same configuration, then we can talk about Grace cartridges, seriously. Right now i see that you have never tried the best Grace cartridges yet and you only can repead that you like the Ruby or SoundSmith refurbished one. There was a RUBY version of LEVEL II cartridge and i have it too. As i said i’m collecting different Grace cartridges and styli. How can you tell anything about Grace if you may never owned any models that are placed much higher in the catalog of Grace (higher than F-9 of any kind) ? You never told me that you have tried any of them. Those upgraded Grace models supposed to be more expensive and much better cartridges. They are all from the 80’s (not from the 70’s). In fact they are better, no questions for me (owned all of them, included some unknown models). I don’t know anyone who would like to get back to the F-9 after trying F-14 or LEVEL II. Worth to try, really. You asking about my gear again? OK: -Gold Note PH-10 phono stage -JLTi phono stage with optional load resistors of whatever value for MM -First Watt B1 preamp -First Watt F2J power amp (for crossover less speakers) -Zu Audio Druid mk5* full range crossoverlesss peakers with high pass filter for super tweetrer (*in fact oficially upgraded mk4 with the latest drivers and tweeters, parts supplied by zu audio). P.S. The situation with Grace reminds me a situation with those Glanz cartridges (long time carts of the month in MM thread), people can’t judge the potential of Glanz until they will try MFG-61 which is another level of performance compared to all lower models from the same brand. Same about Grace latest models in comparison to the lower models. This is where the true winners are! |
@lewm some people on this forum believes that changind a short leadwires in the headshell makes hude difference in sound quality (certainly not me).
I believe that LC-OFC version of the coils and pins makes more different, but diamond shape and cantilever materials are even more important. Also i’m sure that Grace engineers knew how to upgrade their popular cartridges to another level. Most of my favorite MM cartridges from the 80s are better than carts from the same manufacturers made earlier in the 70s.
I have no reason to use new SoundSmith styli for Grace or to send any Grace to SoundSmith for refurbishing, because i have perfect original samples of Grace (some NOS etc) and i don't use F9 series anymore.
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Nothing wrong with your F-9e @bimasta, as i said it's a good cartridge, but in my opinion there could be only 3 winners like in sport (№1, №2, №3). Since the Grace stopped making cartridges more than 27 years ago we can recall the best models.
Shinagawa Musen made so many cartridges under Grace brand that are clearly better than F9 series (and i already explained why). I hope you understand my point now.
Someone could say "Ohh, Grace F8 is a winner" but it's not true, because after F8 they made F9, F12, F14, Asakura's and LEVEL II with many technical improvement for each new series.
P.S. my favorite in F9 series was F-9F (Discrete-4)
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@lewm So, at the present moment, which Grace cartridge do you think is the very best one to own? If I am going after a rare Grace, I may as well pursue their best. Thanks. in my opinion the very best (true winners and champions) are: LEVEL II (LC-OFC) RB/MR (Boron Cantilever / Micro Ridge stylus) F14 BE (LC-OFC) with Beryllium Cantilever / Line Contact stylus None of my Grace cartridges have had any problems with suspension or any problem at all, there is nothing to fix and nothing to tune if you are buyin NOS sample. Those cartridges are very expensive from the start, made in the late 80’s and extremely rare today. Also i would prefer fully original condition and i don’t need anyone to touch it, those retippers go to hell with their prices. Sending a cartridge to re-tipper only make sense if it doesn’t work at all (or broken), but even in this situation i would wait for the original stylus to buy. For those who are optimistic about Van den Hul service should check his prices first, installing a Boron Cantilever will cost 750 euro minimum (which is about $870) and you must apply via his distributor in your country. At the end It will be Boron Rod, but not the Boron Pipe which comes with the original Grace top models, beryllium is no longer available from anyone. Original cartridge is the best! |
@lewm So why wouldn’t it be potentially beneficial to replace an elliptical with a line contact or some other more "modern" shape, in the process of re-tipping? I want to hear and judge only original cartridges in perfect condition (from any manufacturer), if i need a better stylus or cantilever for my Gace MM i will do my best to find the original (NOS) with the best stylus/cantilever. I’ve had bad experience with refurbished mm cartridges, never again! I do considering myself as a collector of genuine carts only, i will never buy any refurbished cartridge or any re-tipped cartridge when it comes to vintage carts of any type (MM or MC). I often see how people are lying about condition of the cartridges they are selling on ebay, offering refurbished carts with aftermarket parts (completely different cantilevers or glued styli of the different shape and different mass) as the original. Someone even sold me refurbished carts as the original and never mentioned that they are refurbished. I just don’t want this experience anymore in my life. Re-tippers work or suspension repair does not looks nice under microscope compared to the original factory made genuine products. This is not for me. In my opinion retipping/refurbishing service of some mega rare MM only make sense if there is no chance to find the original stylus replacement. Refurbished vintage cartridge does not have any collectors value and the sound of such hybrid has nothing to do with the original sound. Some people see it as an upgrade, but i don’t see it like that. I believe that top quality vintage MM cartridges are superior to anything new and i am using only genuine carts so far. I would pay more for a NOS (sealed in the box) original than for refurbished cart from VdH or any other reputable master. P.S. remember jp jones story about his Technics top of the line cartridge, the end of the story was pretty sad when someone tried to "refresh" the suspension of that rare cart. No one can guarantee the result of that job. This is not for me, never ever in my life i will send some rare working cartridge for some "fine tuning" or retip or whatever" to anyone. |
@lewm
Acutex used titanium cantilever in its top models. I don't know of any other manufacturer that did that, but could be.
Victor X-1IIe has titanium pipe cantilever Audio-Technica AT150Ti has titanium cantilever too One of the Grace LEVEL II variations has even Ceramic Cantilever |
@lewm oops, i meant Grace Ceramic cantilever in my previous post, not Titanium |
@lewm my grace titanium stylus replacement is still sealed, never tried.
Victor X-1IIe with titanium cantilever and elliptical stylus is superb MM cartridge, only one step behind the X-1II with beryllium/shibata
In my opinion Victor X-1IIe is much better than Grace F9e |
@jollytinker which model ? Normally from 3
mV
to 5 mV (depends on the model) |
@nandric Dear chakster, I own both; JVC-X1, mk1 as well mk2 . Both have solid beryllium cantilever + shibata stylus. If titanium cantilevers are available than as separate styli. There are also aluminum kinds available for both X-1,mk 1 and mk 2.
What’s the point? You don’t have the model i am talking about, this model is X-1IIE and it comes with Titanium Cantilever (tapered pipe), the stylus replacement part is orange. The models you’re talking about are all have Beryllium Cantilevers (solid rod) and they are completely different (with clear stylus replacement part). I hope you can see them all on my pictures above. The rest of what you’re talking about are made by JICO, because JVC/Victor never ever made those top models with aluminum cantilevers. JICO made modern replacement for them, they are also orange in color, but does not have tention wire, they are not even SAS and very bad quality compared to the original Beryllium or Titanium. P.S. X-1, X1II, X-1IIe cartridges killing the Grace F9 series with ease, they are superior and belongs to the best MM ever (they are also much lower in compliance which is no problem to use on any modern tonearm). |
Ceramic is even more resonant and very bad for cantilevers. Other than in cartridges some manufacturers used in headshells and tonearms and all sounds really bad. Raul, You’re comparing Apples to Oranges and i believe you have never ever tried the Grace with Ceramic Cantilever to even talk about it (this model is extremely rare). Also nobody knows the process used in manufacturing such cantilevers. I am not trying to say this is the best material, but anyone who blame it should have it at least. You’re talking about headshells and tonearms when the question is cartridge and its tiny cantilever. I use ceramic record weight (disc stabilizer) made by Noritake and it’s excellent compared to Micro Seiki copper disc stabilizer (but i think it has nothing to do with the cantilever). Do you know any audio products made of bamboo? Miyajima made first Bamboo cantilever not so long ago. Nobody made such cantilevers before, so what? |
@jollytinker Grace made mode than 20 versions of LEVEL II cartridges in the 80s, which one you’re looking for ? As i said the output is from 3 to 5 mV depends on the model. You’re welcome. vinylengine is the worst source for information regarding rare models of japanese cartridges, there is a lot of misinformation, you have to check on japanese sources for correct info Everyone can find more about rare Grace models here https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/grace-level-ll |
All B&O cartridges made by SoundSmith for B&O under contract. SoundSmith is OEM, Peter spread the light on this interesting fact in his interview for Stereophile: https://youtu.be/Rd948px1230 |
@jollytinker : Maybe could be better to you to look for a different cartridge " taste " that could be the excelent Acutex M320 or Acutex 315/320LPM, B?O MMC1 or MMC2 or even the Astatic MF200 or MF100. Yes, please buy all those, but leave the Grace LEVEL II and F14, AT-ML170 and AT-ML180, Victor X-1II, Stanton CS-100 WOS, Glanz MFG61 and Pioneer PC-1000 mkII for me, i will appreciate it very much, thanks :) |
We have to remember that normally in good recordings the recording microphones are at near field position and from this point of view the LOMC are truer to the recording. We’re talking about vintage cartridges here (let’s say from the 80s max), and some of the best mastering and cutting engineers have completely different opinion about MM vs. MC. Here is a TAS article about it. All of them prefer an MM over MC. But the choice of MM is very special: The Audio-Technica AT-ML170, Technics 100c mk4, and even Stanton 881s. "Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using? Another moving magnet, this time the Technics EPC 100, Mark IV, unfortunately no longer available in the US. But he describes the Audio Technica ATML-170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent colorations." I believe there are an exceptions, but everyone have to compare prices for the exceptional MC to some amazing MM first. I do trust people from the industry, who mastered and cut some of the best records at the studios like Doug Sax’s The Mastering Lab in L.A. etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Sax |
