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Tonearm recommendation

Hello all,
Recently procured a Feickert Blackbird w/ the Jelco 12 inch tonearm.
The table is really good, and its a keeper. The Jelco is also very good, but not as good as my Fidelity Research FR66s. So the Jelco will eventually hit Ebay, and the question remains do I keep the FR66s or sell that and buy something modern in the 5-6 K range. My only point of reference is my old JMW-10 on my Aries MK1, so I don't know how the FR66s would compare to a modern arm. So I'd like to rely on the collective knowledge and experience of this group for a recommendation.

Keep the FR66s, or go modern in the 5-6K range, say a Moerch DP8 or maybe an SME.

Any and all thoughts and opinions are of course much appreciated.

Cheers,      Crazy Bill
wrm0325
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rauliruegas
12,786 posts
 
Dear friends: The advise to the audio community is to stay away from heavy mass, all metal and not WELL damped tonearm designs: vintage or today ones.

Regards and enjoy rthe music,
R.
fleib
1,124 posts
 

Raul,

> "Mantain frequency resonance value, between tonearm/cartridge, in the range of 8- hz to 10 hz is something that many of us always are looking and is something all of us want it."

The recommended range is 8 to 12 or 13Hz.

> "Now, what happen during playing because the theory is on static way where the cartridge is not ridding the LP grooves."

No, it's not about static. There is no resonance with static as the name implies. We're talking about dynamic compliance, arm mass, and resultant resonance or affect on performance.

> "The theory of that cartridge/resonance frequency is that to low frequency like 4-6 hz cabn be exited and coincide with vibrations/resonances generated by the TT/cartridge and then can make that in some areas of the LP surface the cartridge/tonearm " jump "/mistracking."

No one is talking about that. This situation is the opposite - a low compliance cart. No theory was proposed, especially about high compliance carts on a heavy arm. Arm/cart resonance is a measurable phenomena. It occurs. If it occurs close to, or in the audio band it will cause intermodulation.

> "As I said the all metal FRs are because of that metal a natural/self resonace/vibrations generator device but along that is a NON DAMPED DESIGN!!!! go figure."

Miss science class when you were a kid?  Self resonance vibration generator? Would that be static or dynamic self resonance?

That's a cute anecdote about the MC2000, Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

Regards,


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rauliruegas
12,786 posts
 
Dear fleib: It has to do with all the situation on hand.

For me is 8 hz to 10 hz the ideal resonance frequency. As a fact there is no rule about the precise frequency range.

""" No, it’s not about static. There is no resonance with static as the name implies. We’re talking about dynamic compliance, arm mass, and resultant resonance or affect on performance. """

sorry that I can’t explainit well. What I want it is to say that for that happen exactly as the resonance formula gives us we need a perfect LP recording with perfect LP surface. Yes the resonance frequency in a spring works with that formula, my mistake in the way to explain it.
Now, you really don’t know wich is the real tonearm effective mass in the tonearm because depend on the tonearm counterweight position.

""" No one is talking about that. """

maybe you did nt but the target to achieve that resonance frequency is to stay " save " from those frequency additional exicitemet.

Maybe I did it when I was a kid but that’s what happen with a metal non damped tonearm, it function as an additional resonance/vibration/distortions generator. Like it or not.

Maybe you are running that kind of distortion generator.

No it was not an anecdote but a proved fact by some one that knows a lot more than you and me together or at least than me.

Btw, B.Pisha was not a " simp’le " professional audio reviewer, he was a way talent engeneer that between other things created an alternative to Löfgren, Baerwald or Stevenson geometry set up tonearm/cartridge parameters that was reconized for the audio engeeering societies.

Anyway, what I think is that you have nothing on hand against my statement on: " heavy ,all metal non-damped tonearm designs " and only look where on my posts I made it a mistake and put " light " on that mistake.

IMHO, could be better that you can prove how is that a heavy and long all metal and non damped tonearm helps to improve the quality cartridge performance satisfiying all the cartridge needs and mantaining all the generated distortions at minimum.
This is what al of use like to hear from yu: a real contribution and not only to say: no, that’s the easy way. The right way is to say no and prove it showing why not.
At the same time we all are waiting why that tonearm is a good team for the Koetsu Rosewood and Denon 103R becvause you forgot to explain it: could you? because was your advise to wrm0375.

You are welcomed to do it. As I always say: we all need to learn and if I’m wrong then I can rectify about. Waiting for your in deep explanation with first hand experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
fleib
1,124 posts
 

Raul,

You're looking for subjective proof?  How bizarre.  Crazy Bill has 2 low compliance carts and you start talking about one that resonates at a very low frequency, a high compliance cart on a heavy arm.  This is supposed to refute some unstated theory.  Apparently you don't know what you're talking about. You're the one who brought up recommended  frequency range, so you can refute it as a theory?

FACT - When a low compliance cart is mated with a light arm the resonant frequency goes up.  If that resonance approaches or goes into the audio band it will produce intermodulation distortion.

OPINION - The Rosewood and FR66s sound excellent together.  Crazy Bill said it sounds better than his 12" Jelco, a fluid damped arm.  IMO this is a great combination. I haven't heard the Rosewood sound better, maybe you have, but your lack of knowledge and vested interest makes you suspect.

Are you selling arms now Raul? If so, I hope your partner knows more about this stuff than you.

Sincerely,

wrm0325 OP
71 posts
 
Hello all,
WOW !!!
First, thank you to all who have offered advice, opinions, or fact to this mix. I truly appreciate it.
First, since Raul questioned what my phonostage is, let me state my entire system so that everyone will realize that it is not limiting my observations.
Feickert Blackbird turntable
Fidelity Research FR66s or Jelco SA750lb 12 inch tonearm w/ TTWEIGHTS VTA adjustor and ISOKINETICS counterweight.
various headshells, all high end stuff including The Arche w/silver leads
Grover Huffman phono cable
Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 w/ SE+ upgrades
Geortz silver micropurl interconnects feeding a Stax SRM007tll
either Stax SR007Omega or SR007 earspeakers as my mood strikes me.
All power cords Silver Sonic Red Wave.

I think all of us can agree that this is a high resolution system capable of laying bare any differences in source material. In addition, I have a record collection that MF would probably cut his right arm off for. All the usual high quality re-issue stuff, plus approx 800 or so albums that are called " under 20 cuts ", all of which are one of the first 20 pressings off of the first stamper. Doesn't get any better. So, basically, the only limiting factors here are my ears or my brain ( and they are just that ).

Let's start with Raul's assertion that I had an ulterior motive and was not really seeking advice. Nothing could be further from the truth.

While my ears told me the FR66s was very superior to the Jelco, and to the JMW-10 I used to own, I still hadn't heard any modern tonearms to compare. My question was genuine, and I wanted to know the experiences of those who may have been fortunate to compare and could relate their experiences. So thank you to those ( Halcro and fleib ) who offered their unbiased opinions. Truly appreciated.

Raul, I'm sorry, but your IMHO stuff just doesn't cut it with the way you present it. Some of your opinions may have some merit ( can't say for sure, as I'm no EXPERT LIKE YOU, though I do have a pretty good set of ears ), but your attitude of " I know everything and everyone else is wrong " simply puts people off. I see absolutely nothing at all HUMBLE about your attitudes or your opinions. In fact, quite the opposite. So please stifle it and don't post anything else on this thread. Your attitude is destructive, not constructive. I won't speak for anyone else, but I, for one, don't want to hear any more very biased unsubstantiated nonsense from you.

I asked for some empirical data because I was hoping that it actually existed. Frankly, I'm a little surprised it doesn't. It would have been nice to see if certain tonearms did actually exhibit higher distortion mechanisms or frequency response aberrations due to material resonances.

If anyone else has anything positive to throw in the mix, please, let's have it. While I'm strongly leaning towards keeping the FR66s  and selling the Jelco, hell, you never know.

Last, quite a while back I remember a thread that I think was titled " Old Skool Tonearms ". It's gone now, but if I remember correctly it was a treasure trove of truly useful info that I would dearly love to lay my hands on. I printed it out once back then, but I can't find it. Anyone got it house who would be willing to forward it my way. I'd be glad to make you some CD's for your trouble. I've got a lot of really good music on my hard drive.

As Raul is wont to say ( and this is not being sarcastic, as I agree with him completely )

Cheers, and Enjoy The Music !!

Crazy Bill



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