Tonearm recommendation


Hello all,
Recently procured a Feickert Blackbird w/ the Jelco 12 inch tonearm.
The table is really good, and its a keeper. The Jelco is also very good, but not as good as my Fidelity Research FR66s. So the Jelco will eventually hit Ebay, and the question remains do I keep the FR66s or sell that and buy something modern in the 5-6 K range. My only point of reference is my old JMW-10 on my Aries MK1, so I don't know how the FR66s would compare to a modern arm. So I'd like to rely on the collective knowledge and experience of this group for a recommendation.

Keep the FR66s, or go modern in the 5-6K range, say a Moerch DP8 or maybe an SME.

Any and all thoughts and opinions are of course much appreciated.

Cheers,      Crazy Bill
wrm0325

Showing 50 responses by rauliruegas

Dear fleib/chakster and friends: That advise that we need a high mass for a low compliance cartridges has many " roads " surrounded it.

Mantain frequency resonance value, between tonearm/cartridge, in the range of 8- hz to 10 hz is something that many of us always are looking and is something all of us want it.

In theory that’s the frequerncy range we have to look for and I say in theory. In theory that can gives the cartridge7tonearm better tracking and mantain at minimum bass resonances that has a huge influence in all the frequency spectrum during LP playback. I’m not questioning that theory.

Now, what happen during playing because the theory is on static way where the cartridge is not ridding the LP grooves.

Everything change during playing because the cartridge has to fight not only with the movements in the LP grooves but with the excentricities of the LP and its micro and macroscopic surface LP waves.
The theory of that cartridge/resonance frequency is that to low frequency like 4-6 hz cabn be exited and coincide with vibrations/resonances generated by the TT/cartridge and then can make that in some areas of the LP surface the cartridge/tonearm " jump "/mistracking.

Well, how the real tonearm designers fixed that real problem?, using engineering concepts and the main one that even today is a must in any tonearm design was to damp the tonearm to mantain in effective way those " terrible " resonances that always affect directly to what we are listening in the full frequency spectrum.

In the golden Audio magazine times ( 80’s. ) B.Pisha made a full review of the LOMC Ortofon MC 2000 ( I think 1984. ) that for every one is a learning review ( including for today professional reviewers. ):

things are that this cartridge is a heavy weight high compliance one. Pisha mounted in all Technics TT ( SP 10 ) and S-shaped tonearm and he measured during playback a resonance frequency of 5hz in between cartridge/tonearm and he started to listen diferent LPs with no problems at all and he said that because he can’t believe that the cartridge/tonearm with that so low resonance frequency could works so good he measured for second time and confirm that that resonance frequency was that low. He measured during plasyback a dynamic cartridge compliance of 31 cu!

That combination tracked totally clean all the cannon shots in the Telarc 1812 ( and other torture recordings. ) where you can find frequencies so low as 8 hz!!!

So what was happening? all that gone against the theory and believes of all audio experts, why?:

thing are that that Technics tonearm ( 250/100. ) has a self damping mechanism that just works marvelous, a mechanism that even today can be an envy for any single tonearm designer.

That is real science in tonearm design but Technics was and is part of the electronic gigant japanese corporation: Matushita, where the research and work is not made it for one person but for dozens of them where there is no resources limitations.

There are other old examples of great engineering tonearm designs as the Lustre GST-801 and others.

As I said the all metal FRs are because of that metal a natural/self resonace/vibrations generator device but along that is a NON DAMPED DESIGN!!!! go figure.

There is other critical problems with high mass and long tonearm designs:

The main target in a cartridge is to follow/ride perfect the LP grooves and for that the cartridge tracking is a constant in horizontal/vertical fast movements where the tonearm has to react in the same faster way to those cartridge movements.
Now, during playback exist an inertia to the cartridge/tonearm to the center/inside the LP that inertia goes per se against the cartridge ride and the tonearm needs to control ( but has not that control in any way. ) that inertia movement/force and here as higher is the dynamic mass in a tonearm as higher is the dificult to change that inside inertia when the cartridge rides to the opposite path.
Always is easy to " stop " a lighter dynamic mass than a high mass device.


So and IMHO we need very good damped tonearms with no high effective mass.

You can think what you want and stay happy with what you want but those are facts. I learned and time to time all of us can do it if we want to do it.

regards and enjoy t5he music,
R.
Dear wrm0325:  I don't know what phono stage/linepreamp you own, I know that your TT is a good Denon/Cotter.

Now, I owned almost all FR tonearm models including the 66 and years ago ( along other japanese tonearms as SAEC and Micro Seiki/Audiocraft. ) I left goes for very good reasons.

In the old times the audio industry and the inside market in japan was focused on those all heavy metal and long tonearms. Was the fashion and over the time gone out japan to the world market with more or less success. Stereophile/TAS reviewers of those times reaslly did not " care " about and their preferences gone for other tonearms but we more or less " rockies " in audio bought those japanese tonearms mentioned and stay with till some of us learned about.

The 66 is a non-damped tonearm and builded from metal that as a metal is extremely resonant and instead to damps the cartridge/LP/TT self vibrations/resonances/distortions only magnify it.

Yes, almost all those japanese tonearm designs are very good " looking " but that's all especially in the FR's.

Read what an expert posted about, a music expert not only an audiophile:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tonearms-longer-than-12-inches/post?postid=1289705#1289705

what am I trying to say here?: that every one that is listening through the 66, IMHO,  is listening a lot higher distortions and less music information from the LP grooves.
I'm not questioning to any FR tonearm owner that I respect all of them and their privilege is that they like those higher distortions. My reference is live music and that's my home audio system listening quest day by day.

For me, the name of the game in our hobby is to lower ( put at minimum. ) all kind of distortions at each link in the audio chain and any one can do it if has the knowledge and skills to discriminate between real music information and those distortions.

IMHO, the standards of home audio/music listening quality level is way different to the standards of those very old times. At least my today audio standards quality level.

Now and with out knowing your whole audio system and music/sound priorities if I was you I put on sale at once the 66 and stay ( for now. ) with the Jelco and put on sale too that Koetsu and that Denon cartridges. 
For what you get for that sale I put part of that money ( before to decide for a new tonearm/phono stage. )  for a way better phono cartridge and is where I would like to start.

Only an opinion but the " ball " is in your " field " and you are the best judge.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


Dear halcro: """  The Market Place is never wrong. """

not really because what exist over the audio market is a high ignorance level and this is normal because customers ( like me. ), as in any kind of market , go for " the today fashion " with out ask before why that audio item is " a fashion " and a must to have.

All of us bought and buy " mistakes/errors " audio items and IMHO we have to learn from each one " mistakes ", as a fact that is an important part in our audio/music learning ladder. Of course exist audio people that does not cares about and are sticky till they " die ". Nothing wrong with that.

Now that you mentioned, I remember that DaVnci tonearm that was launched with huge shouts and trumpets and every one gone for it and everyone was satisfied with.
But things were that in that high price audio item you was/are not abble to make changes on azymuth that's is always a necesity in any cartridge for it can shows at its best.

The manufacturer explained why was/is not convenient  in its design  and if I remember was because a compromise with the rigidity or something like this.

Time latter when customers ans reviewers ask for that azymuth tonearm facility they changed and not only that but even ( against their rigidity argument. ) designed with removable headshell.

If I remember you was one of those satisfied customers.

DaVinci learned  ( as I said. ) from their own " mistakes " for not do it again.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.






Dear jmwick: I'm not against but I don't be in favor of long tonearms that on playing status has more disadvantages that " theoretical " advantages. However I heard 5-6 times the " normal " Kuzma 4point and as its TTs is not only a very good design but very good performer that helps the cartridge to performs at high quality levels.

IMHO this is a today very good example of tonearm engineering that as I said works as a cartridge " slave " and not the other way around as the 66 and smilar items.

Btw, that Proteus is a " cartridge ".


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear fleib: why is the best team those cartridges with that 66?, maybe I'm missing something and always is time to learn so some " light " from you can help all of us.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear halcro: Exist no mantra. Your tonearms mistakes ( every one learned through each one mistakes. I learned through them too. ) are facts  but you still live with those mistakes and other ones that are facts and no mantra.

Please don't try to hide the sun with your finger because you can't.

You  bought that DaVinci " GREAT " TONEARM AND YOU WERE PROUD OF IT. It does not matters that you accept it that was a mistake an ignorance mistake.

Normally our mistakes are ignorance mistakes and some other comes by " accident ".

Enough, the thread does not about you ( be happy. ), me or even wrm0375 but looking for advise. and I already gave mine.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear halcro: """ that’s why arms like the FR-66s and 64s, Micro Seiki Max 282, SAEC WE-8000/ST, Dynavector DV507/II, 505, 501, are still in demand world-wide...even against the very best and latest modern iterations """

that’s only say the level of audio/music ignorance that even today exist in our beloved hobby and nothing more than ignorance.

Ignorance to don’t understand what is happening down there: cartridge/LP/tonearm/TT combo, to not understand the cartridge/LP needs and the delicated role that tonearm plays in this " picture ". So delicated that the best that a " perfect " arm can do is to mantain at minimum all the generated distortions and we can’t even dream with a " perfect " tonearm: just can’t exist, so figure what we have in each of our tonearms!!!! and the damage that all does to the cartridge signal and you are in favor of the " champ " of those distortions!

Nothing wrong with that, as I said somwhere that’s each one privilege: have fun with.

I learn each single day and I don’t turn back my face for what I left but go a head to the audio heaven and the only way to find out is growing  up thinking several times " out of the box ".

For many years I was deffending those heavy metal good looking tonearms till I understand what is happening " down there ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear chackster:  """  high mass tonearm made especially for low compliance """"

could you explain this and its importance?, I think is critical during playback.

Thank's in advance.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear wrm0325: Please don’t ask for something that no one have on hand ever and I mean not only amateurs like you and me but professionals in audio.

""" the final proof for each of us is in the listening """

this depends mainly in which step of the audio/music ladder you are because if youare a rookie then what you listening has very small value or even if you are at average level.

Now, can you distinguish/discriminate between diferent kind of distotions? say: wrong cartridge overhang vs wrong SRA? , if you can please give me an example of them: wich are the differences during listening? what is the kind of sound you percieves?

If you can’t do it then keep with you the 66. It’s not important wich tonearm you own as is not important which cartridges you own.

I know your answer because you agree with halcro who was one of those " satisfied " DaVinci tonearm owners. DaVinci fixed its mistakes but halcro did not and as many other of us make other mistake with the 66, this time worst than with the DaVinci and he is not alone.

We can´t  talk about if you can’t discriminate between musical information and subtle distortions and its harmonics.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.




Dear wrm0375: Btw, looking for advise but seems to me that that was not your real target because you are happy with the mediocrity/average level of your tonearm and cartridges.

The advise I gave you was an unbiased one and looking for a real improvement of what you have today, looking for an improvement and that you can grow up enjoying a better audio/music experiences in your system but you have to have an open mind .

As I said that's only my opinion and the best one comes from you and if you are satisfied in your today status then stay there.

If all that is true then your thread has no sense asking for advise when you are not open to receive it and put wirth a defensive attitude.

Anyway, live with your choices. That's what deserve each one of us.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear friends: The advise to the audio community is to stay away from heavy mass, all metal and not WELL damped tonearm designs: vintage or today ones.

Regards and enjoy rthe music,
R.
Dear fleib: It has to do with all the situation on hand.

For me is 8 hz to 10 hz the ideal resonance frequency. As a fact there is no rule about the precise frequency range.

""" No, it’s not about static. There is no resonance with static as the name implies. We’re talking about dynamic compliance, arm mass, and resultant resonance or affect on performance. """

sorry that I can’t explainit well. What I want it is to say that for that happen exactly as the resonance formula gives us we need a perfect LP recording with perfect LP surface. Yes the resonance frequency in a spring works with that formula, my mistake in the way to explain it.
Now, you really don’t know wich is the real tonearm effective mass in the tonearm because depend on the tonearm counterweight position.

""" No one is talking about that. """

maybe you did nt but the target to achieve that resonance frequency is to stay " save " from those frequency additional exicitemet.

Maybe I did it when I was a kid but that’s what happen with a metal non damped tonearm, it function as an additional resonance/vibration/distortions generator. Like it or not.

Maybe you are running that kind of distortion generator.

No it was not an anecdote but a proved fact by some one that knows a lot more than you and me together or at least than me.

Btw, B.Pisha was not a " simp’le " professional audio reviewer, he was a way talent engeneer that between other things created an alternative to Löfgren, Baerwald or Stevenson geometry set up tonearm/cartridge parameters that was reconized for the audio engeeering societies.

Anyway, what I think is that you have nothing on hand against my statement on: " heavy ,all metal non-damped tonearm designs " and only look where on my posts I made it a mistake and put " light " on that mistake.

IMHO, could be better that you can prove how is that a heavy and long all metal and non damped tonearm helps to improve the quality cartridge performance satisfiying all the cartridge needs and mantaining all the generated distortions at minimum.
This is what al of use like to hear from yu: a real contribution and not only to say: no, that’s the easy way. The right way is to say no and prove it showing why not.
At the same time we all are waiting why that tonearm is a good team for the Koetsu Rosewood and Denon 103R becvause you forgot to explain it: could you? because was your advise to wrm0375.

You are welcomed to do it. As I always say: we all need to learn and if I’m wrong then I can rectify about. Waiting for your in deep explanation with first hand experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear fleib: That Audio magazine review ( and exist many similars. ) tell us the importance to have a well damped tonearm because with the Technics " disconected " damping mechanism Pisha listen tracking problems/distortions and was till he " switch on " that mechanism when he was surprised the effectiveness about and where the cartridge shows it at its best.

I think that you have a misunderstood on what I'm  explain it here or I did not explain it in the right way.

Forgeret about that resonance frequency theory and analize only the facts on  playback.

" It does not matters " the cartridge compliance and tonearm effective mass if you have a well damped tonearm design.

Btw, I have to rectify on the Micro Seiki 237/282 because is not all metal design, is not 12" but shorter ( its flag  ship model in japan was the 237 not the 282. ) and is well damped. Good design against the " terrible " SAECs and FRs.

In those all times when some one in japan ask to a japanese audiophile which was his preference and why between SAEC and MS tonearms the audiophiles gone through the SAEC because they said " is more alive ".
That " alive " touch are in reality not music information but the distortion touch of the SAEC bad damped and ringing bearings against the the MS with lower distortions.

problem with persons like you and many many other is that are not trained ( self trained ) to discriminate  those additional subtle distortions exited and out of control because those undamped heavy metal tonearms and that " alive/power " are not but distortions and not  real music information.

In the last 36 hours I received  several emails asking why to bother about low frequencies that we can't hear and that almost all audio systems can't reproduce:

well, any resonance has fundamental frequency where happen that resonance ( it does not matters where it comes. ) and that means that at the same time that is happenuing are created its harmonics exactly as the harmonics in the music and that's why those " distortions " always affect all the listening frequency spectrum and we have to take in count that those " distortions " happen all over the frequency range not only at 8 hz or 20 hz but at 3 khz too ( for whatever reasons. .

Non damped tonearms only increase that minute to minute " phenomenon ".

Got it ?


Fleib, any thread is not a contest so please don't try to beat me because a thread is a whole opportunity for all of us to learn. A thread is not who is right but what we can learn.

Appreciated your attitude about. We need your contribution and if your contribution was what is in those posts, that's ok. for me.


Btw, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Is very dificult for any one of us to have a dialogue when exist diferent levels of ignorance in between persons. My level is high and I know it.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear wrm0325: """  While my ears told me.... """"

are your ears trained in specific way to discriminate subtle distortions?  because I know people in this thread that can't discriminate the IMD but I said that we don't have speak of persons but explain why yes or why not and not only say: yes or not.


"""  any more very biased unsubstantiated nonsense from you.  """

You don't like my explanations and I can't do nothing about because that is my ignorance level, btw my opinion always is unbiased and reflect my and other audio experiences. Sorry for all that.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.




Dear cleeds: That professional review is a fact that have certainty that maybe you don't agree with has nothing to do with my posts where nowhere I said my knowledge is superior to yours.

Regards and enkioy the music,
R.
Dear atmasphere: I agree with that Triplanar tonearm and when you have the opportunity the Kuzma 4point is a must to " hear " in your own system, very good too.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear fleib: """ Raul, I think your patronizing attitude about others’ knowledge on this and other subjects, is not appreciated, .......... It was you who challenged my recommendation .... . """

Even that you saw it that way in reality I’m not challenging you or any one else ( it does not matters that people see that way. ), that is the way I’m and the way many persons in my country speaks but with out trying to offend.
Ignorance is a day by day word in Mexico and means that we don’t know about that or this or whatever subject.
I never go inside a dialoge where I’m ig norant of the subject under discusion.

Btw, I only wanted from you an explanation why that combo is a good team when for me it’s far away to be it. As I said, I like to learn. Sorry to disturb you.

I think that every one of us have diferent audio/music knowledge levels as I think that each one of us have diferent kind of " natural talent " in some audio/music subjects and in others just we have not.
In the other side our audio/music experiences and self training is diferent.

That’s what overall I think and my posts reflect that kind of thinking. Now, if I’m wrong to think that way I can rectify if yo tell me where and why I’m wrong.

In this post to me I can see you are more relaxed, I hope you can understand my explanation.


""" Waiting for your arm to be introduced, or is that not imminent? """

my tonearm design looks as no endless " picture/movie " even for me and Guillermo.

There are several subjects why is not yet out there ( as a fact it’s but it’s not. You know what I mean? ).

First my friend ( an audiophile. ) and I are not dedicated to it full time maybe we take 1% to 3% of our time to that tonearm design in some days and that’s why so many years with.

Second and more important is that I’m a " perfectionist " and we want a " perfect " tonearm. The design is unique in several subjects and not " more of the same ".
What means ( for me. ) a " perfect tonearm ? one that can fulfill the needs of any cartridge, it does not matters if it is l/m/h compliance opr l/m/h weight or MC/MM.

That’s the main target and exist other " auxiliar " targets in our design. So to fullfil the cartridge needs you have to make a serious research which ones are those cartridge needs, all of them and each one relationship with the LP it self, tonearm, TT, etc. We don’t think in the tonearm for its a priori design but in the cartridge and how this cartridge is surrounded. What are the needs and main cartridge challenge it must win.

Looks easy but I can tell you was and is not so easy.

Right now I have three samples mounted in my system that looks exactly the same and where all of them have very high quality level performance but when you listen the same cartridge on each one you have subtle very tiny sound differences that only if you are trained can discriminate.

To stay there I made and still make hundred of tests not only with our different prototypes but against no less than ( vintage and today ) 25 tonearms and more than 60 cartridges( today and vintage. ).
Those tests were made not only in my system but in other home audio system.  Additional I made it several tests with different build materials and in between combination and even I tested with different type/design of tonearms bearings ( no, it's not an unipivot design for good reasons. ).
I forgot other main targets is not only to be " bullet proof " but extremely user friendly.

I have to change and refine my overall evaluation/comparation test methodology that I already had it for years.

Even if our tonearm never goes out I can tell you that was and still is a deep learning lessons.

Things are that first to be marketed have to satisfy to me and right now is extremely close to do it, so this year is the year for it.

Anyway, thank’s to answer me that way and please take in mind that I never be trying to offend any one, except who offend me first and you can be sure that I have patience about.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


Fleib: I forgot too that the tonearm is totally builded at home. My friend is the leader distributor of USA Hass ( and from other manufacturers world similar tools. )  in México, Central América and now in Spain too. We have at home what any mechanical engineer can dream to build anything.

R.
Dear ct0517: Your self experiences about needs no further explanations and as you said that FR ( worst in the 66 because its higher non damped mass. ) showed that LF resonance ( read: DISTORTIONS. ) and that’s was what you was more sensitive aware but that kind of distortions happen in all the frequency spectrum alongn its harmonics distortions in a non damped tonearm.

In can bring now another " fatal " experience through an agoner that I did not want it to post because in this thread are at least to gentlemans that because they feel not good enough builded a " superhero " ( that’s what ignorance can makes when we have not self arguments. ) that is that FR seller.

In this agoner experience this gentleman the in good faith audiophile not only bought the FR tonearm but it boughts a new cartridge and tonearm cable under that " superhero " advise to make in the audiophile system a test to prove that the FR tonearm makes dust the ET2 tonearm that the agoner owned in those times and not only that but this gentleman followed any single advise from the " superhero " to make the set up. Here it’s the final result posted by the ET2 owner who invested big dollars to made that test:


""""" First of all, I want to say thanks to Dertonarm for starting me on this journey and all of the help he gave me in setting up my arm. As some of you recall, I purchased a Fidelity Research FR64s, a NOS Orsonic headshell, and an AQ LeoPard tonearm cable. This was all mounted on a new armboard on my VPI TNT table. After I had removed the ET-2 from the TNT and while I was waiting for the new arm and all of the other parts to arrive, I went ahead and did some maintenance to the TNT. I removed the bearing assembly and took it to a machinist for inspection. He didn’t like the fact that there was .004 clearance between the spindle and bushing. He pressed out the old bushings, machined new ones, line bored them, and pressed them in. There is now .001 clearance between the spindle and the new bushings. The machinist also micro polished the spindle, cleaned all of the remaining parts, put in new oil, and declared it finished. Dertonarm was emphatic that I install the FR64s 231.5 mm from the spindle to the center of the bearing instead of 230mm as the manual recommends (as well as the template FR provide with the arm. The machinist made a tool from barstock that fits over the spindle of the TNT and has a hole drilled at the other end with the center at exactly 231.5mm. He machined a tramel point that fits in the hole so you can mark the armboard with the exact spot for the correct distance. This tool was used on my new armboard and the hole was precisely drilled for the FR64s. I used the Dennesen Soundtracker to set up the cartridge as recommended by Dertonarm and VTF was set using a digital scale. I have the SDS for my TNT and speed was checked and set using the KAB strobe. I am telling you all of this so that you understand that I went through great pains to install this arm correctly. The cartridge I used during this time was my almost new Benz Glider SL.

I found the FR64s much more difficult/time consuming to set up compared to other pivoted arms I have used over the years. Some of you may disagree, but this is my experience. Most pivoted arms, once you have the cartridge installed, you slide on the main counterweight, make sure the anti-skating is set to zero, move the counterweight until the arm floats level, set the counterweight scale to 0, and then turn it until you have the correct VTF and bingo-Jed’s a millionaire. Then you set your anti-skating for whatever makes your socks roll up and down, and your pretty much done. After that you just start dialing your cartridge alignment in with your favorite alignment jig and readjust your VTF. Not so with the FR64s. The FR64s has a main counterweight, a dynamic stabilizer weight, and an anti-skating weight that all must be installed. I am not going to go through all of the necessary steps to get this arm set up, but trust me, if you have never set up a FR64s, it is more difficult than your average pivoted arm that I am used to. Again thanks to Dertonarm for all of the help during this process and Syntax offered some help to me as well which I also appreciate.

Before I removed the ET-2 I broke out a NOS Maxell UD 35-180 tape (I love this tape by the way). I recorded a selection of songs (at 15 ips 2 track on my Otari MX-55)that would showcase the FR64s arm’s ability to boogie in the bass as well as track the many dynamic swings that many of these cuts have. I recorded the following songs:

Lyle Lovett-My baby don’t tolerate
Lucinda Williams-Righteously
Herb Alpert-Rotation (from the MoFi version)
Talking Heads-Burning down the house
Herbie Hancock-Rocket (from the 12" single)

After I had the FR64s installed for about a week and had it as tweaked out as I knew how to make it, I re-recorded the above selections in reverse order on the same tape. That way at least I had one cut that would play back to back.

Now some of you had sent me emails asking if I had any preliminary findings to share and I demurred. I never claimed to have the fastest ears in the west so I like to take my time and make sure I know what I am talking about so I don’t have to eat a plateful of crow later (which I have certainly done before). Well, the jury is in for me, and it is my opinion that the ET-2 is much the better arm. The only thing the ET-2 gives up to the FR64s is a bit of bass punch, but I don’t think the bass from the 64s sounds as natural as that from the ET-2. The bass from the 64s almost seems detached from the rest of the music if that makes any sense. There is a myth that linear tracking arms don’t have good bass or can’t reproduce the bottom octave at all. This is nonsense in my opinion. I can speak for the ET-2 and tell you confidently that it reproduce great bass............--.-..........-.-..

In closing, I know that the FR64s is not the most expensive pivoted arm in the world and some of you may sniff your upturned nose and say I should have used a "better" arm. I am really not going to listen to any of that drivel. I spent around $3K setting up this experiment and I know that the FR64s is considered a damn fine tonearm which is why I bought it. ..............

I reinstalled my ET-2 last night and I haven’t stopped grinning since. .....
I stayed up until way-late o’clock last night because I just didn’t want to stop listening to music. Over and out . """""


Chris, there is no doubt that a non damped or not well damped all metal lon tonearm can’t be a " DISTORTIONS GENERATOR ".

That some persons like it is only because they are not trained to discriminate about. That’s why the post answering you where that that LF resonance does not exist in his experiences with. So what is happening with that gentleman, easy: his ignorance level is way diferent from yours or the other agoner experience I posted here and diferent from my ignorance level.

Sad to say it but for me it's clear that wrm0325 can't discriminate about distortions.

Your ET is a champ and as I told you in your thread an icon in the tonearms history.

Regrads and enjoy tyhe music,
R.


Dear wrmo325: "" You are quite the PIECE OF WORK. And that’s not a compliment. """

That’s not my target here or in any other internet audio forum.

""" "Are your ears trained in a specific way to discriminate subtle distortions ".
No. Of course not. Are YOURS ? And if so, who trained you and what are their qualifications and what is their methodology ? I doubt you’ll have an answer ... """"


yes mine are. No one can gives you that kind of trining other that by your self if you know what you are looking for by your experiences and sometimes by " accident ".

I say by accident because with some kind of distortions/anomalies I discovered the diference ( on reproduced sound. ) between a error on cartridge mount overhang: Things were that I mounted a cartridge and did not re-check ( as usually do and not used my evaluation methodology neither. ) the overhang set up and during playback ( that was a very good cartridge performer. ) everything " sounds " good but next day my felling was that even that I listen a good performance quality " somethimng " din not made click in my brain and started my evaluation methodology ( a well proved and repeatable " bullet proof " method. ) and then I knew that really was a wrong set up and when re-check the overhang it was out of position by more than 4 mm.
I followed making tests with diferent overhang errors till was clear for me how to detect that kind of errors against other kind of distortions.


""" And THAT is the basis for my judgements on what sounds like real instruments and music when reproduced, ... """

as you my reference is live music. I still attend each month to at least 4 live music events that helps me not only to know the real sound of any instrument but that helps me to understand the differences between that live music experiences and a home audio system experiences why and what to do to improve our home experiences.

""" " because I know people in this thread that can’t discriminate the IMD "
Really, name them. Tell us who they are so they can either confirm your accusations that they’re stupid or defend themselves against them. I’m going to guess that no names will come forth, .... """

Year ago when I already had connected two subwoofers in true stereo fashion in my system I gave an advise to that gentleman in this thread. I told him that due that the crossover frequency in the woofer speaker is to high he had higher IMD that what he can imagine. His answer was a precise NO and explained to me that his marvelous speakers are custom made by " God " and needs nothing at all.

Time later I started a thread about and posted this:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

after that some one ( latter ) told him again about subs and he followed in that road and even that he knew all the thread information ( by me and other Agoner’s. ) he took a bad choice of subs that he can’t connect in true stereo fashion ( latter he had to bought and additonal kit to do it. That additional kit means additional distortions because was not in the sub opriginal design. ) and that has higher distortions that what we recomended in that thread and then he choosed a " weird " room position for those subs that as Chris posted here ( i told him that problem with. ) not the best place to do it. Obviously for this gentleman the overall sound in his system is " out this world ".

In those " old times " I made several advises to him in cartridges ( MM/LOMC ) but he always said no.
Even I told him here in Agon the advantage with similar TT as my Denons to try the naked/no plinth in similar TT as the JVC and others. As always negative answer.
Time latter because other Agoner that follows my advise told him that really works he started about.
I think that like amonth he posted that he " discovered " a better way to the JVC naked set up and things are that years ago I gave to him ( I posted . ) that same way to make the set up that he " discovered " after all those years.

Years ago he posted:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-the-sudden-popularity-of-12-inch-arms/post?postid=340132#...

and my answer to that was this post:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-the-sudden-popularity-of-12-inch-arms/post?postid=340140#...

and this gentleman is the same that today " dies for those " distortion’s generators. ""


wrm0325: do you know whom speaked ( seriously speaking ) for the first time about those AC,FR, SAEC, MAXs, etc. tonearm or the real DD alternative through Technics/Denon and the like or a real alternative to LOMC cartridges named MM/MI cartridges or about the real necesity to use in any audio system, with pasive speakers ( where their woofers crossover 150-hz-200 hz and up ), active subwoofers or the DD TT set up with out plinth or to stay away from 12" and upper tonearms or non-damped tonearms ? IMHO was me and in all cases I gave wide explanations about as I always do.
In each Agoner's laughed of me in my face with their posts and I'm not talking ( example: DD TT advise by me. ) of Rega owners ( no offense to Rega or its owners. ) but Walker TT owners, Ravens and other remarkable BD TTs of this level that today use DD Technics and other DD designs instead the big BD names. As I said the DD is a real alternative.

Btw, " my superhero " is always MUSIC and LOW DISTORTIONS and learn how to mantain it at minimum.

In the other side, I own 6-7 diferent headphones sets including Stax and I learned throught it and through the listening of live music and other experiences that the right way to listen music at home is through sopeakers because things are that the human been listen and capture the sounds through all its BODY not only ears. We " hear " sound frequencies through our head hair and whole body hair and through our skin and bones.
Sop the headphones is an incomplete experience that preclude you can detect some kind of distortion and music information.

I’m not douing a critic for your way of listening, so stay calm about and make a research for your self and if I’m wrong I appreciated return and share with all of us.

Enough for now.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.




Dear wrm0325: """  I won't respond to his gibberish in the hopes he just goes away. """


That has no sense because was you who ask and made me specific question and in my last post to you I try to gave a wide explanation for each one of your question and now you posted that????

Make sense to you?, maybe your moniker is not really a moniker.

In the way that a shooter wears his weapons you know if it's Billy The Kid and you want to be a shooter but things are that you have not weapons: go figure!

It's obvious that if any one like you ask through a thread for help ( like you. ) is because you are not prepared and have not the knowledge level to take the right choice for your self and this talks per se that you are not only over the average step in the ladder audio knowledge lever but way down that average step . At least is what you already showed here as other gentlemans in the thread.

Nothing wrong with that, sooner or latter you will learn. Have faith on that.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear stringree: Appreciated.

The ignorance in the people makes that when any one shows them something they are ignorant at once puts at defensive and if they can't understand it then go inside in a deep frustration like almost all the gentlemans here.
They have no real arguments other rthan express their deep frustration. Additional to that they are not willing to " hear "  and are so frustated because their high ignorance level on the subject that even fall in insults.

Other problem is that they want to beat me in the discussion and because they can't do it and never will and not because I'm right ( because I can be wrong. ) but because they don't understand the overall subject and have no arguments to " fight ".

Understand northing about even with facts and clear evidence that all of them are wrong with the CT0517 ( Chris. ) post where he made the comparison to find out those distortions through the master tape recording and he detected those distortions and not only him but the gentleman experience I posted and even Dgarretson did it it does not matters if he likes those " alive " distortions because I'm not talking here what we like but what is right, that's way diferent.

Again your post appreciated.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R. 
Dear dgarretson: """  The Kuzma is absolutely free of HF noise artifacts. Its spooky calmness suggests either a slight HF roll-off, or if not roll-off, then damping at a threshold that might be confused by "uneducated" ears as a roll-off or loss of air or extension. As I have the same reaction to very low-noise SS electronics like my Pass XP-25 phono stage or XA-160.8 monoblocks, I’m coming around to the idea that my ears have been reeducated to listen for what’s missing(distortions) as much as what’s included(music). """

Exactly, that's what I'm talking about. In the other side I agree about your tonearm bearing explanation because aditional we have to think that always exist feedback through those bearings.

""" 

partly by virtue of its particularly open and alive sound-- similar to what Raul alludes to as favorable to Japanese audiophiles of the vintage era. If these be distortions, then at this level of performance I’m willing to accept even subtle distortions into the realm of taste. """


of course that that that " realm of taste " is what normally moves our actions through the audio " road ".

Now, all of us are accustomed for " hundreds " of years to higher distortions that can be tolerated when we learn about and be aware of those distortions.

I can't " blame " you or any one to like some kind of reproduced sounds only to encourage any one that want to do it to start a voyage to learn for through the time self experiences ( like yours. ) can discern/be aware of those distortions distortions that does not exist in the recording ( as Chris detected through the same master tape/LP comparisons. This is clear evidence and no one needs to prove anything else about. ) and that were generated ( in the tonearm uner " eyes " in this thread. ) by the tonearm.

What we like is not enough argument but try to reproduce the recording LP mantaining distortions at minimum and the tonearm is a critical link in that desired target.


Dgarretson, I can tell you that because you know very clear the live music sound if you give time to that "  slight HF roll-off, or if not roll-off, then damping at a threshold that might be confused by "uneducated" ears as a roll-off or loss of air or extension .."""  you will take in count that that is the right and natural way how that LP recordings has to sounds.

We have to give that time because each one of us ears has 30-50 years accustomed to very high distortions.

Thank's to enlight and enrich that main and critical audio/music subject.


Regards and enjoy the music,

R.




Dear analogluvr: " pretty good for a 300$ cartridge ", yes for that money is good because it makes sounds but that cartridge is part of the low-fi items where the Rosewood belongs to the mid-fi audio items.

Your nsx is better performer ( I owned ) and the Fe5 is even better and as you know these Audioquest designs were manufactured by Scan-Tech ( same as Lyra. ) to the Audioquest specs/characteristics.

Btw, as all the gentleamns here that " D4 the 66 noise/distortions generator " you only said: " keep it " but as the other persons give no single reason why that tonearm can fullfil the cartridge needs and makes the cartridges really shines. Could you put some light about?

Seems to me that I was and am the only one that make a wide explanation why not keep that tonearm and here more about that long tonearm:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tonearms-longer-than-12-inches/post?postid=1289088#1289088

additional we have to remember that the 64/66 are dynamic balanced designs  and all dynamic balanced designs always generate ringing ( noise/distortions. ) through the dynamic mechanism but two tonearm design: the MAX 237/282 and Luste GST-801. Adding to that problem the micro and macro waves in the LP recorded surface makes that in a dynamic balanced tonearm design the " normal " continuous changes in VTA/SRA/VTF  that always exist in any tonearm ( static balanced included. ) been more pronounced do that when there is a crest in the LP surface the deflection in the cartridge cantilever is higher in a dynamic balanced design that in the static balanced one that works with natural gravity where in the dynamic the mechanis always force to mantain the VTF but when is against a crest the cantilever is pushed up making a higher cantilever deflection.
In both kind of tonearm designs exist the problem but in the dynamic one is bigger. Normally when the human been goes against the mother nature fall down.

I hope you will be the person that can explain that " keep it ".

regards and enjoy the music,
R.



Dear syntax: It’s obvious that with your audio system you can cause impact to audiophiles that could think that a 300K-500K system must performs with the higher quality level ever we can dream.

I experienced not one time but four different times audio systems in that price range and at least in one the quality perfromance did not honored that high price.
In the other side I experienced in dozens of audio systems coming from as low 35K that belive it or not beats that megabucks systems and many of them are very near of those high price systems.

Dover, posted something very important: """ system and how well the gear is set up ... """ and I can add that if the system right set up is important it’s more important the right choices on each single link in the audio chain and this means the right knowledge audio/music level.

IMHO, if you use an all metal non damped tonearm in the analog rig it does not matters how and with which audio chain that tonearm is surrounded. The overall quality performance of that system will be poor due to that weak link.

The same is valid on each audio system link. TTs no exception and you like heavy impressive/good looking weight TT as many audiophiles but you forget that if it’s true that heavy platters helps in BD system to mantain in easy way spinning the platter we have to remember that that heavy metal platter ( it does not matters if it’s air bearing design. ) at the very first time it starts to spin that static mass is coverted in dynamic mass and starts to " vibrates " at micro levels but the cartridge is a very sensitive " microphone "/ vibrations detector and even if we don’t know it the cartridge knows about those vibrations generated in that heavy mass platters in any TT.

As this " phenomenon/curiosity " are all what I posted here and elsewhere that makes distortions.

That you like it is fine with me. I learned and you will sooner or latter. Knowledge level and not the money is what counts to have the best the audio system quality performance.

Knowledge level, skills, set up and some kind of money. In that order.

I know for sure the kind of distortions you like it ( your system speaks it self, I don’t need to listen it ) that are worst than mines.

Anyway, I still learned from this thread including your post. As I said, a thread is not a contest in between participants and exist no challenge or challengers but people like me trying to learn. Got it????


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Ps:  " I hope you can learn on what Dover posted:

"""" you are correct in your comments about the dynamic balance mechanism ( which is a coiled spring ) used for setting the vertical tracking force.... """, these are tghe kind of distortions you loved, good!. 


Dear dover: """   I like the "distortions" in my system..."""

I think that everyone likes " the distortions in each one system ". Now and trying to be constructive: in this thread and the one spéaking of tonearms longer than 12" I posted almost all my first hand experiences on the kind of distortions generated by those long tonearms or non-damped tonearms, I talked about specific distortions that today I can detect and I can discriminate between those distortions and music information.

The kind of distortions you are accustom or Syntax or Halcro or other gentlemans here I was accustomed for many years and is extremely dificult to " let it goes ".
I had and have success doing that when I learned to detect/discriminate the diferent type of distortions and very critical issue was that I gave enough time ( lñistening. ) to my brain to LISTEN  music with out ( well mantainning at minimum. ) those distortions.
For time I mean months of continuous listening daily sessions and in between making tests with the " old ditortions " till I was sure that those distortions were distortions. This long experiences makes that today I listen to lower distortions and more music information.

If you can't recognise some kind of distotions then you can't do anything about. Btw, it's more easy to do it with SS electronics that with tubes but I don't want to open an additional window for discussion on this topic.

The subject is not: I like my system distortions " but to know how those distortions sounds and if you like your system performance quality level with those detected distortions rthat is another matters.

I think that in this thread Dgarretson posted that he detected the tonearm distortions I'm talking about along the same type of sound through his SS electronics experiences.
The important subject is that " he KNOWS " and he accepted that likes those distortions. I think that he needs to give a longer time to the listenning with out those distortions.

Anyway, as you said mine is only an additional opinion.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
fleib: Maybe I did not explain the right way ( as almost happens. ). What are in " game " here? only the static/dinamic balance design?

no, there are several issues that play an important role about and one of them is the type of tonearm bearing, its quality and its friction levels in that bearing.

The FR tonearms were not designed with today best bearings and certainly not with a friction as low as the one ( example ) by Technics vintage tonearms of 4mg.

This low friction bearings ermit  that the cartridge in the crests/valleys tracks in very gentle way putting at minimum the changes in VTF/VTA, these Technics are statics designs and not 12" long.
In a dynamic balanced design with the 66 characteristics the crests pushed harder the cantilever/suspension in the cartridge because the dynamic mechanism always is pushing in the other direction but the LP crest has more force.

Try to find a EPA-100MK2 and make all the tests you want it against the 66 and then return to enlight about.

Btw, any of you 66 owners please go with a good " technician " and ask that he ( in your face. ) open the 66 tonearm bearing case and you will see the kind of tonearm bearing you today are " hearing " and trusting in.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear dover: """  I see Jonathan Carr uses a wrap on his FR64S arm tube but I do not like damping on tonearms as a general rule as it tends to suck life out of the sound and at worst smear the sound, particularly spongy or soft materials such as rubber, heat shrink, etc. """

first, things are that JC is cartridge designer and if there is a person that knows for sure the cartridge needs is a knowledged cartridge designer like JC. He knows that damping is a strictly necesity on any all metal tonearm ( raw steel or raw aluminum. Magnesium, boron and some other metals are less prone to resonate as steel. ) and that's why he likes that kind of damping with a tonearm non-damped design as 64/66.
I think that in the same thread that JC posted about I posted too ( several years ago. ) that I used a Sumiko set damping items where one of them was a piece of light " polymer " like to use it around the tonearm wand, wraping it.

second:   """  I do not like damping on tonearms as a general rule as it tends to suck life out of the sound and at worst smear the sound  ... """

years ago in this forum when I was talking of the after market vacuum platter hold down item that one gentleman here posted almost the same of you  ""  to suck life out of the sound .. """" and as you he does not like it that item. I already said it: Dgarretson can identify between those distortions but he preffers the " alive " sound.

IMHO no one can " to suck life out of the sound or smear it "" by damping a tonearm. You can't overdamp a tonearm.

Why said I that?. 

: in an audio perfect world with out TT/platter/arm board/tonearm/  vibrations/resonances/feedback/generated noise/ system/room air pollution and with perfect LPs  the cartridge pick up the information exist in the LP grooves and before and after the cartridge makes its transducer job what we have and pass through the tonearm internal wires is just the recorded grooves modulations with no single added " noises " of any kind and this modulation grooves music information is what you, me and every one want to listen: THE PURE MUSICAL INFORMATION that a well self damped transducer/cartridge gave us.  RIGHT?

Now, that is what happens in a non existent analog audio world and no one will listen it in that way never ever.

Things are that all of us for all our audio life were and are listening to many " things/distortions "" and never the pure signal. All of us are accustomed to the non-perfect world and that's why you and many of us do not like that " suck life out/smear/ the like " kind of sound when that sound is nearer to the LP grooves modulations.
We like more alive kind of sound even if it's wrong, as I said we like it because we are accustomed to it.

That's why I posted that we have to give enough time to the totally " new " experience and I mean: months not days or weeks.

Now, I'm talking only of analog rig but a home audio system has other links: electronics, cables,  speakers, room, etc. etc where are generated additonal distortions ( every kind. ) that puts all our systems far away of what is in the LP grooves modulations.

That's why I always say ( for years in this and other forums. ) that the difference between a good system and a better system are each one system distortions generated levels and that the main target ( at least for me. ) must be to mantain at minimum those distortions in each link of the audio chain and to do this we have to have the training to identify ( step by step for many self experiences years. ) at least the 80% of those distortions because if we can't do it we can't fix it and we can't know where all they comes.

When you , after listening time, finally are accustomed to that very low system distortions you can't go back: no return. When you there you can in easy way evaluate any system you listen to and even if you don't listen it because you know the system items that are the worst in that system. Here the subject is the 66 but we can talk of other " generators ".

Now, take a look to the " best " tonearm designs: Technics, Lustre, MS, Triplanar, 4P, Schroeder, today DaVinci, etc, etc. where a common characteristic is that all are very well damped, because a dedicated mechanism or the blend tonearm build damped materials. Even the SME V ( with the dynamic balanced " problem ". ) comes with oil damping.

Many of you have the faulty desined 66 and even that's a whole faulty design ( as the MS RX TT. ) you are trying to tweak those items: go figure!!!

I made and make item modifications only if the product is a really good original design and it's worth to make those up-grades. Well, that's me.

Btw, with or with out the 66/64 I do not like the KR. The only K I like is the KRSP and CoralStone but in both cases nothing to die for.

No, I'm not willing to explain in deep about because to understand it I have to explain where ( in a home system ) belongs the music and this subject alone is for a complete thread.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


Dear dover: I must add that that PURE MUSIC SIGNAL that pass through the internal tonearm wires when " touch " the IC cables that send it to the phonopreamp starts the continuos degradation of that true grooves modulations information all over each single link in the system audio chain.

Now, when any kind of distortions " disappear " in that first link ( cartridge/tonearm/TT ) then all the additional single system links distortions are more evident and we have to fine tune each of those system links and sometimes even change some of those links as cables or electronics even we have to adjust our seat position and the speakers position and a check up that the room treatment is not overdamped even to check the SPL we are listening in this totally new experience.
This check up of the SPL we are listening is important because when the distortions goes lower and lower we think that the volume/SPL of what we are hearing goes lower too but it's not really in that way. What's happening is that you are not hearing to the high distortions you were accustom to.

So, it's not to damp ( in any way ) the tonearm but we have to make and overall adjustment to all the audio system. Not an easy task and very time consuming but the rewards each one of us received are second to none.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear syntax:  """  still writing his ringing nonsense like a broken record. The usual pain for brain. Old men never learn anything I guess. Buy some better electronics. You are not a perfectionist. """

I can't argue on your opinion that it's Your Opinion and I respect it.

As any one else we all are rpoud of what we have in our home audio system.

You are extremely proud of what you own. Any one can " see " it when you took the time to those all system individual items pictures in your virtual system and I can see that you still like the same " noise/distortion generator ""

You own not one FR but both the 64 and 66 and additional you have the RX MS TT that's a terrible one ( yes I own it. ), a design| with several drawbacks: a platter that ring like a bell, motor unit by Technics/Panasonic but very bad circuit parts and circuit board on the motor/control unit, non damped TT design with a terrible mistake because MS choosed to put the four arm boards exactly in the worst place that is where stay the TT foots where all kind of resonances/vibrations pass through each foot and directly are transmited to the all metal arm boards, etc, etc. I can go on on those so many design faults. In those regards the SX  version is the same.
Of course, you like tubes and some times SS too and several other "  generators .. "

Like you I owned, own or listened almost all the cartridges you have but one of the Koetsu stone version and maybe other 1-2 cartridges you own.

Good for you tha are so proud ( like me. ) with what you have and speaks of what kind of distortions you are enjoying.

Now, please make a favor toall of us and put some light on how the 66 helps a cartridge to it can shows at its best. Why and how? where and which are those 66 advantages or unique atributes that are so good for a phono cartridge?

I already posted why not with a wide explanation here and in some other threads several years ago in the same way I did t with the MS RX/SX TTs.
I'm sure that if you have is because you know for sure those 66 advantages and the whys of each one advantage to fullfill the cartridge needs, so I ask you how the 66 cover each cartridge needs.

If you can do it will be appreciated ( I'm sure ) for all of us and if you stay in silence then for sure you have nothing on hand other that the worst kind of audiophile " runaway ":  "" I like it. ""

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


fleib: Stop to insult me. The first time I took it as joke of me and even I laughed but additional 3 other times is not a joke any more.

So stay calm about or I must to report you to Agon.

You can be against my opinions and even against my person but here in this forum I never insult directly to any one.

I never said to you or any one that are " stupid " or something like that. I always respect any single human been every where.

Enough,
R.
Dear cleeds: In all my internet audio forums I never did it.

Let me to ask: from where you have that " idea "?

R.
Dear fleib: """ I assume you meant propagating or amplifying. """

exactly and non-damped tonearms are the worst about. I call " generator " because during playing the tonearm instead to kill those distortions makes biguer and helps to generate addional ones. If you don’y like that word call it in other way, the important issue is that you understand it and I can see that you did it and if you did it ( because you know me very well. I think? ) why those kind of posts from your part?

I said " over and over " because almost no one post the right answer explain it why I’m totally wrong or why they are recomended " this or that ". Almost all only say: "" use this or use that " but with out any single reason that can be foundation ( right or wrong. ) for what they say.

Almost all are accustomed that way: " don’t use that or don’t use this "" and I want to learn why " yes " or why " no " or if I’m wrong to analize and if it’s the case I can rectify and learn about any audio subject.

Btw, that gentleman was not Dgarretson because Dgarretson knows more more that that gentleman.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dover: Unfortunatelly you failed this time but just keep trying because I make mistakes every single day. Good luck on this, maybe next time.

Btw, it's incredible that you took all the time to say all the world about the mistake of Raul.
Dover who cares about Raul? , no one and now you makes me " famous " because my " mistake ". Thank's for that and as I said: keep trying as JW.

Btw, that tonearm in the picture is a very good Sony, recomended and and way better that your FRs. Well almost anything is better.

That cartridge I put on sale is still with me because the Agon buyer never pay for it and if you remember in that time I write in the advertasing that the buyer could choice for the original female cartridge connectors or the way I have it: with male connectors for tonearms like Triplanar, Graham and the like.

Well, now I can see you showed the " cooper " in you. Good to know it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear dover: """  but you can't even install a cartridge properly in your own system."""

I never used my two 13 D with its original headshell and never in that tonearm.  That picture comes and was only to showed on Agon when I sold  one of my 13D.

I never used with the original headshell because I want it to connect directly to the internal wires on my tonearms with out all those signal degrading connectors and you can see it in that pictures.

So, your post is a misunderstood from your part because you did not know that. Relax, as you any one wants to " get " me on errors and mistakes to disregards my opinions or explanations, I understand this and no problem from my part.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear fleib:  """  With all your ear training I'm surprised you can't hear the affect of over-damping a tonearm. One can MEASURE a negative affect on transient response by over-damping. It also tends to kill the natural sustain of acoustic instruments. I agree with Dover, arms are easily over-damped.  """

problem is that you don't really read with care my posts and additional that you are very dogmatic. 
Look and I repeat: WE CAN'T OVERDAMP A TONEARM EVER.

Before you post again on this subject please re-read what I posted to dover where the essence is here:

"""  in an audio perfect world with out TT/platter/arm board/tonearm/  vibrations/resonances/feedback/generated noise/ system/room air pollution and with perfect LPs  the cartridge pick up the information exist in the LP grooves and before and after the cartridge makes its transducer job what we have and pass through the tonearm internal wires is just the recorded grooves modulations with no single added " noises " of any kind and this modulation grooves music information is what you, me and every one want to listen: THE PURE MUSICAL INFORMATION ....."""""""


in that Pure Muscal Information comes all that transient response and the natural sustain of acoustic instruments. In the LP grooves modulations comes all type of " sounds " recorded, almost nothig is lost and all these is what we want to listen with out adding NOTHING so please tell me: how can we overdap a tonearm?, for me it's impossible to do it because all those recorded information in the LP grooves modulations goes in the tonearm internal wires.
Remember that we are talking on a " analog perfect world " where any additional " information " ( name it noise, distortions, resonances or what ever you want to name it. ) only goes against that " transient response, the natural sustain of acoustic instruments and several other things.

So, because we don't live in a perfect audio world we must to " overdamp " the tonearm.
I know to what kind of quality sound you are accustom to just like almost every one else. I was there too.

Try to think " out of the box " try to ask you:

HEY WHAT IF SEVERAL OF THE INFORMATION I RECEIVED THROUGH MY AUDIO LIFE 20-50 years ) WAS WRONG INFORMATION?

and that is my advise to any audiophile that wants to grow-up.

So, the worst tonearm design is the non-damped one. Btw, the Jelco is way superior to the 64/66 but his owner can'tdiscriminate in between, that's all.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.





Dear fleib:  Could you overdamp a TT or a cartridge?, no you can't. What any audiophile wants is to " overdamp " those analog rig items/links to can honor what's in the LP grooves modulations.
We want that the analog rig be not only transparent but that disappears ( but the grooves modulations picked up by the cartridge/transducer. ) from the reproduced sound. Everything comes in those LP grooves modulations and comes in " pristine " condition.

We are not talking what we like or what we are accustom to but what must be like it or not what you percieve through ears/brain/body.

Of course that I can be wrong and as always I'm willing to retify if necessary.

R.
Dear dover: In my country people say : " don't try to find out 3 foots to the cat knowing have 4 ".

I bought my two 13D as originals and maybe what you say is only a picture efect. Both cartridges comes with the dedicated  internal connection wires and both has serial numbers down to 15.

What do you try to prove with your posts? what?, please enlight me about because that is not a contribution from your part that helps on the subjects here.

Anyway you are free to post whatever you want it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear lewm: From my part there is no batlle with any one.

Now, as fleib you don’t got what I wanted to explain, this is my fault.

What I’m talking is what in a non-existen " perfect audio world " we have in those internal wires: ideally a pure non-contaminated signal information.

I posted that we can’t have it never ever because we have many distortions/noise/vibrations/resonances surrounded the ridding of the cartridge LP grooves modulations as: TT/arm board/Tonearm//air pollution/LP anomalies and that’s why we need to overdamp those audio chain links to be nearer to that " ideally non contaminated pure signal music information ".

In that analog rig we can’t overdamp as a fact we need to " overdamp " down there to impede or at least mantain at minimum any single degradation to that signal in those audio links.
Lewm, remember that all the necessary music information comes in those LP grooves modulations and everything that could disturb the ridding of the stylus on those grooves modulations only can degrade that precious recorded music information. If we don't damp those audio links the we will listen additional and bad information that were not in the original recorded signal.
No one needs to measure nothing here as you suggest. Please think in deep of what I’m saying here because as fleib you are too very dogmatic: open the box!

Where can we overdapm?, in the speakers/room links ( treatment ).


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear lewm/fleib and friends: Why exist the still points, vibraplane platforms, after market tubes dampers and " better " tubes circuit board bases, items to damp speakers/CD players/amps/preamps, cable elevators, clamps and TT mats, room treatment, speaker designers that take care of internal cabinet damping along the choosed build materials, speaker designers that take care seriously that the speaker crossover be perfectly damped and even designs with an external crossover, we audiophuiles that are looking how to kill vibrations anywhere the audio system?

Why every one: designers, manufacturers, reviewers, customers are looking where is that best damping item? WHY? No one needs to be a scientific to answer that we all only need COMMON SENSE, no single measurements about.

Do a simple test today: take out all the damping items in your audio system and listen it and come back here to share your experiences about.

No, damping does not cure the ills of the source nothing can do it. No, damping don’t mimic high bearing friction. What we want is that nothing interfere with the recorded signal and the best we can do is try to mantain each kind of " signal interferences " at minimum and nothing more. The tonearm is critic to help about or to " amplify " those system starting interferences.

To much bla, bla, bla, from all of us.

Take any non damped or not well damped tonearm and try to damp it wraping or whatever ( with the right material. ) its arm wand and at the same time follow what I posted here in the whole audio system and after first hand experiences not a couple hours experiences but with time because we have to accustom tho this all NEW EXPERIENCE.

If we have not that first new experience then we don’t know if it’s tru or it’s totally wrong. This is the subject here because no one is willing to try it.

That’s happen in this same forum when I brought here: the MM true alternative, the necessity of subwoofers, the DD TT alternative, the alternative to tonearms with universal removable headshell, no plynth in DD TT and many other audio " experiences ".

Almost all tell me the same " BS " or laughed of me but they were not willing to try but when finally ( months/years latter. ) they decided to do it that " laughs and BS " disappears for ever on those alternatives. So, try it before tell me again and again that my ignorance level is to high.

I don’t have any single benefit in that you try it, I never post to achieve personal benefits and I’m not against no one of you. I only try to share all my first hand experiences.

Please, as I posted before, don't try to beat me because this is not a contest but an excersice to learn or not all of us. That's all. Don't try to look for that single " word " where I could be wrong, be more positive and opened to what you have not experiences.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.



Dear fleib: """ your bit about pure musical information going through the wires is bizarre. Of course you can overdamp an arm. Look at the output on a scope. """

of course is bizarre but remember that I’m talking on an " ideal and perfect audio world "": that’s what all audiophiles want (  "" pure musical information going through the wires...""" )  and only can dream with. At least me.

Why? because that’s not posible with so many vibration/noise/resonances/distortions/anomalies sources that not only surround the LP/cartridge but where any single part of the whole analog rig has and intimate relationship in between others making more complex to identify each one source of those " overall anomalies " and the result when those single source " anomalies " are mixed with the other ones coming for the other analog rig sources and that’s why we need to " overdamp " each one of those sources of " overall anomalies " that always degrade the recorded signal because all those " anomalies does not exist in the recorded signal that comes in the LP groove modulations.

Now, I posted this so try to give you the answer to that WHY? and share your answer or answers with all of us:


"""" Why exist the still points, vibraplane platforms, after market tubes dampers and " better " tubes circuit board bases, items to damp speakers/CD players/amps/preamps, cable elevators, clamps and TT mats, room treatment, speaker designers that take care of internal cabinet damping along the choosed build materials, speaker designers that take care seriously that the speaker crossover be perfectly damped and even designs with an external crossover, we audiophuiles that are looking how to kill vibrations anywhere the audio system?

Why every one: designers, manufacturers, reviewers, customers are looking where is that best damping item? WHY? """""


Yes, we can damp a tonearm or any other audio item at different damping levels even " overdamp " looking at the output of a scope ( as you said it. ) and this is part of the main subject of what I’m talking about. In an ideal world what I need is that looking to that scope signal exist no " anomalies/deviations " of any kind to preserve that critical/sensitive/fragile " pure music information traveling in the internal tonearm wires ".

" Overdamp "?, to whom? where is the damage to the music signal coming in the wires that comes from what’s recorded in the LP grooves modulations?

I made those questions to you and any one but first that any one even think about I would like to ask to you and the other contributors in this thread this:

DO YOU WANT TO LISTEN WHAT THE PHONO CARTRIDGE PICK UP FROM THE LP MODULATIONS WITH OUT ANY SINGLE " ANOMALIES " OR YOU WANT TO LISTEN IT WITH ADDED FULL CONTAMINATION OF EVERY KIND OF SYSTEM GENERATED DISTORTIONS?

that’s my target and for I can be nearer tho that target I have to mantain at minimum all the audio system generated " anomalies " at each single system link and damping is only an important step to do it along other steps.

Due that that’s my main target I have not fear to " overdamp " because according with that target no one can do it.

Which your target?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


PS: btw, there is in this thread a gentleman that ( some years ago ) , if I remember, posted answering to an Agoner that " we can´t overdamp " a TT or platter TT " ( more or less. ).

I know he is reading this and I hope he can post about because is a person that I have high respect for his knowledge level and if he posted that I know he has several reasons about.
Dear fleib: Of course there are several ways to damp and oil damping is only one of them, I posted several ways to do it in several audio system links but I talked too ofdamping through self damped build materials and a blend of build materials. I talked too that we can’t just disappear overall distortions but that the target is to mantain it at minimum.
Some kind of damping helps to change the frequency range where those distortionas happens or to convert to other kind of energy or lowering its SPL, etc, etc. I did not said nothing against all these.

Twe oil used on unipivots is used because mainly because its natural unstability of that kind of design but not really to damp overall the tonearm ( the only unipivot I own that does not needs bearing oil is the Satin. ). I heard too what stringreen posted in my Audiocraft but insiste that’s not the damping ( every kind. ) I’m talking about.
The damping mechanism used in the Technics EPA-100 or in the MAX 237 or in the SME V are out of the tonearm bearing because are not unipivots. In non-unipivots designs oil/silicon kind of damping goes out side bearings.

A kind of damp is that the arm wand be tapered as the cartridge cantilevers or as the SAEC and I think the VPI using 2-3 metal parts ( in the arm wand. ) joined.

The important subject here is that does not matters which kind of damping is used because all the system audio links need it. A non damped TT, cartridge, speaker or tonearm is only a " distortions generator ".

As I said the target is to mantain at minimum any kind of distortion. Insist we can’t really " overdamp ".

Now, it’s not only: " hey I need to damp ". No, we have to know where to do it, how to do it and what use to make that damp.

Btw, you don’t answer that big: WHY and what you want to listen.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


fleib: You continue to give explanations but till now you not answer that big WHY and if what you want to listen is what is the LP grooves modulations. Till when?

As a fact no one here gives any single answer about yet. Seems to me that only are walking " around and around and around " but does not takes the bull by its horns and I wonder why!!!! when all of you that are questioning my posts are experts.

Don't be shy or don't be affraid and just do it or perhaps no one of you have a real and true " card " in your hands.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear atmasphere: You was the person that in 2011-2012 posted that we can’t overdamp the TT/platter TT " and from your today post sure we can overdamp if we interfere with its natural movement.

Fleib posted almost he same but as fleib you are not a rookie and " stop " the movement of TT/cartridge or tonearm obviously means we are overdamping but we need damping even here because the LP excentricty, skating force and surface waves that both goes against the " free " cartridge ridding. I know that and every one understand that even if no one talks about,certainly that’s is not what I’m refering to. I know that you understand very well what I’m trying to explain against fleib that he understand it but only try to beats some one.

I owned perhaps the best head amp ever Classé NIL-3. A design with an external power supply that ony this even today could be the envy for many design amplifiers.

Well, the main unit has to metalic shielded boxes ( very heavy unit. ) and as always I wanted to tweak/"improve" so I opened both boxes but to my surprise all the circuit board was not only encapsulated on the metalic boxes nbut truly encapsulated with a silicon like treatment that permit no single " door " to touch any circuit board component/part. This silicon like ( covering everything. ) encapsulation was used as damping.

I remember my tube SA-5 unit where Elliot puts especial attention to damp the circuit board and in the latter top of the line SA-9 he took it at " extreme " that damping trying to " kill " some kind of distortions.

One way or the other almost all the people inside the audio industry/market/hobby are trying to damp their system or designs to achieve better music information lowering all kind of the distortions.

Don’t you?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


Dear dover: """ Removed both external tonearm damping and internal tonearm damping from many arms. The result in every case has been an improvement in clarity, transparency and speed.
In some cases there may be increased colourations due to the resonances in the undamped tube - but for me I prefer to take the increased clarity, transparency and speed and deal with any increased colourations by other means. """

it's clear that what you want is not what is in the LP grooves modulations but what you like it. Good. 

You and me have diferent targets and that's all.

Btw, you don't need to answer to this post.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear bdp24: Agree, at the headshell is where to start the overall cartridge/tonearm damping. Mr. Townshend was and is right.

Btw, we must avoid to use any headshell builded with raw aluminum or raw steel, are the worst ones. We need damping there as bdp24 said it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear bdp24: Where starts the overall damping process in the analog rig?

Just from the cartridge designers/manufacturers. For all of them the self cartridge damping is extremely important for the cartridge overall quality performance.
The cartridge has its own generated resonances from the stylus/cantilever/suspension to the cartridge body buildg choosed materials.

Cartridge suspension is not only important to damping ( all cartridges has some kind of dampers down there ) to put at minimum and out of the frequency range we listen those resonances but to improve the cartridge tracking abilities and to fine tune the cartridge sound when pass through the designer voicing process.

In the other side the cartridge body build materials are critic too for additional resonances/vibrations/distortions stay at minimum. Here too we must to stay away of non damped cartridge body, especially those that uses full aluminum or steel: stay aways of that type of cartridges. Of course that the cartridge body shape is important too.

By nature metals are prone to resonate/vibrate more than other kind of materials.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear mmakshak:  """  I can see, in theory, why static balanced would be superior, but I wonder if just a little resistance, provided by some dynamic balancing, might actually work better in practice(as advocated by the 1/3 dynamic argument).  That might provide a little resistance to big movements and such, while keeping the ringing.at an acceptable level.. """

the best " ringing is no ringing ". and you are right not only on the static balanced tonearm design advantage but about that " resistance " during LP playback.

Certainly the solution is not a dynamic balanced design, the tonearm designers must found out other kind of mechanisms to do it because is need it.

My advise is to stay away of dynamic balanced tonearm designs and obviously on that  non-damped or not well damped ones. Same for the universal headshells.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.