Retail Buying - Reality Check

Believe it or not, I had a much longer diatribe written out detailing my growing contempt for the actions of some who have posted here. But then, I figured it would be lost on the very ones who most deserve it.

I buy both new and used equipment. I don't waste the time of dealers sitting in their showrooms for hours while I decide their equipment is what I want (nor do I take their bids on systems and use them as my shopping list) and then purchase the equipment elsewhere without giving the dealer every opportunity to win your business. Those who feel guilty about this conduct should. Those who don't are beyond any words that I could write.

It was posted several times how the margins are so outrageous in hi-end audio. Some have shown their ignorance of what is the typical margin for hi-end audio. The more informed at least understand that the margin on other luxury items is many times that of hi-end audio electronics.

Not one person has mentioned the designer. Does he/she not deserve compensation for the years of education and lab work to develop these products? If any of you could design and build a product that was worthy of ownership, you might understand, but I'm sure this point is lost on all but a very few. Might I suggest that some should read "Atlas Shrugged"? If you want mass market prices, then stop complaining and go back to purchasing mass market equipment.

All I've read are the rationalizations of people who want to be patted on the back for having not paid retail. Guess what? In all seriousness, Congratulations! I've got no problem with that at all. ( Sorry, but I've got to vent a little. I can't think of anything more annoying than hearing excuses for not having more money to spend because of kids or potential marital strife that might ensue. It is your life! You chose who you married, and chose to have kids and the obligations that are your responsibility. Why do you think anyone else cares? Do people understand the less-than-admirable impression it gives of your spouse, or of an underlying resentment towards your kids? Sorry, Stn. I don't intend to be picking on you personally, but you just happened to mention both of my pet peeves. I'm sure that neither inference is true in your case. What's wrong with simply stating that one has only a certain amount of money to spend, and leave it at that?)

However, I must suggest a concept that appears to be forgotten- it is important how one plays the game. These are more the actions of those in elementary school cheating on the quiz by looking over the shoulders of those with the answers, and then expecting congratulations for a score (or system) unearned and likely under appreciated. The truly sad thing is that it was an open-book test!

Most of the "answers" are available free, right here and on other similar sites, from audiophiles who are glad to share their acquired expertise. If you aren't going to support the brick & mortar, then stop wasting their time. Don't go in and touch and see and hear their equipment and systems. Don't ask their opinions and advice. Getting good prices is a two-way street. Your openness and genuine interest, and yes, your developed relationship with a dealer will insure better deals.

I left retail (selling mid-fi and entry hi-end no less) 20 years ago when I finished college. I'm glad you've reminded me why dealing with the public was such a double-edged experience. I'm sure my comments may ruffle some feathers, but there didn't seem to be sufficient representation of the contrary position. As always, just one contrary man's opinion.

No, Jcbtubes, rest assured it's not only your opinion. You've saved me the trouble of reiterating several of your points. All I want to 'add' is to make explicit the connection between your accurately-observed comments, "All I've read are the rationalizations of people who want to be patted on the back for not having paid retail" and "Those who feel guilty about this conduct [using dealers' expertise, facilities, and time auditioning and selecting, only to go buy used or on the web], should [feel guilty]".

Rogocop, what else are we supposed to conclude about you? You offer multiple insincere gratuitous rationalizations (the burn-in nonsense, Carl and Bubba, the fact that a few of the people you dealt with were not up to snuff, the fact that the first price a shop wants to get is MSRP). You pretend to solicit input about your actions after they have been taken, then attempt to defend yourself by blaming others. The only reasons I can imagine why someone would even post a thread like yours is out of guilt or pride, or likely a combination of the two in your case.

I mean, have you honestly asked yourself why you are telling the forum about this? Do you really think it's going to be news to anyone here that one can buy gear more cheaply on Audiogon, or that dealers want to get a premium for their services? This thread reminds me of nothing so much as a certain one from several months back (which shall go unamed - those of you who were there will know to what I refer) wherein a member (who seems not to post anymore) posted an after-the-fact 'query' seeking justification and kudos for having threatened their dealer with the return of an amplifier if the dealer didn't cough up a free aftermarket power cord, since the member alleged that he was 'outraged' that he 'just discovered' from the dealer that he would 'have to' spend another few hundred bucks to upgrade an 'inferior' stock cord if he wanted best performance, after having just spent thousands on the amp (the kicker was that he had previously posted more than one thread seeking advice on power cord choices, in conjunction with asking about different amps). It's always amazing, even if not surprising, how the prospect of spending money can make even those who have it act like children. At least that guy didn't totally waste his dealer's time, just ours - you've done both.

Yes Rogocop, maybe the dealers played it wrong by first giving you full-boat bids and then seeking to recontact you afterwards, presumably to try and 'earn' your business through a price break. But I know from experience that the only way this would have happened is if the customer appeared not to mind the prospect of paying retail. Many shoppers enjoy projecting the image of someone to whom price is no object until the critical point in the deal is reached, at which time they will lay down their demand and walk away, leaving it to the dealer to try to rescue their large ticket after having put in all their work under the impression that a deal was in the offing. It's a buying strategy that salespeople dislike but expect (although they don't really know if it's coming or whether the customer is actually willing to pay retail) - only you didn't call the bluff or lay down your cards, by refusing to make a counter-offer or take their calls. I am sure that had you acted more like an average customer, and made some mentions of price and/or that you were shopping around, during your auditioning interactions at the shops, you would not have gotten back full-boat bids. Any business owner is perfectly well aware that one of a customer's primary motivations in soliciting multiple bids on the same or similar products and services is to get the lowest price, and since you declined to let them even try, I have a hard time believing you now when you say that it wasn't your intention to leave and buy used all along. Sorry, but either that makes more sense than your story, or you're too naive to be a man in your position - and I don't believe that.

You have nothing to be self-righteous about and nothing to brag about, save for your new system, so enjoy it; I can only hope for your sake that your own business' customers are better as such than you were, or that you and/or your salespeople are better as such than those you dealt with (or at least as forbearing). But you'll probably feel better about yourself if you own up honestly to what you did and reform your shopping habits in the future (hint: either skip the dealer entirely, or give them an even chance at your business). That's your 'reality check'.

P.S. - Edesilva, you da man!

Hope you don't mind a slight detour question -- it's related to the thread. If I buy a component through the used, internet market and the component at some point needs servicing by the manufacturer, and if the manufacturer requires me to take the unit to a local dealer for shipping rather than having me ship the unit directly to the manufacturer -- how does this affect the dealer? Does the dealer get a commission for handling the transaction? Are there any negative impacts on the dealer I should be concerned about? Thanks.

Jcbtubes...great point...and one I failed to mention...the majority of cost in hi-end products are R&D and labour...not material costs...you are essentially buying a hand-made product by very skilled engineers...these are the "intangibles" when buying good gear...many newbies balk when looking at 2k monitors for example...but when u factor in design,quality,and performance...it begins to make more sense...Are all hi-end products deserving of a high pricetag? Ofcourse not...there will always be inflated products that offer sub-par performance...but those that have done research...or encounter an educated sales rep(there are still some out there)...will avoid these pitfalls...

Also...buying very hi-end audio/video is like buying any luxury item...if the buyer and seller cant strike a deal...the consumer walks...that is his perogative...there is no need to bash the dealer for not meeting your price...or for complaining that the margins are 2 high...nobody is putting a gun to your head to buy this stuff///

Phasecorrect, Although I agree with you in principle, in practice it doesn't work this way.

In principle: Dealer makes offer, I decline because it is too high and we part friends.

In practice: Dealer does not want to make offer, when I decline I am treated with contempt unlike anything I have ever been subject to in the retail market. I am also blackballed because the dealer knows I can get a better price. I think you may be underestimating how DEEPLY dealers resent the internet / used market.

I see a mounting crisis that is probably headed for the courts.