Retail Buying - Reality Check

You make it sound as if you didn't broach the subject of price with the stores you solicited bids from. Yes, better salespeople than you apparently worked with wouldn't have let you fly away so easily without a fight - a weak salesperson with stars in their eyes from a potential big-ticket deal will hold onto the dream of getting a full-boat sale even as it rides off into the sunset (despite the fact that 0% of MSRP isn't preferable to >0% of something real). But in my many years of being a retail salesperson, the customer behavior that still baffles me most (can't say surprises, as I expect it) is the almost total reluctance many customers display in simply letting the salesperson know what they want. Many otherwise friendly and open people seem to feel they must protect any information they have developed through comparitive shopping (and the criteria it has created in them) as if it was national security secrets or something. True, it is definitely the job of the competent salesperson to elicit this information from the customer so that they can better serve them, but it nevertheless amazes me that such a high percentage of otherwise intelligent and assertive customers are forever unwilling to recognize that they stand a much better chance of receiving what they want if they will simply ask for it. I don't know if this applies to your case or not, but I've never known a small business where management will refuse to work a deal below MSRP for a substantial package purchase (and frequently a much smaller purchase than that) if that's what it takes to make the sale.

No, Jcbtubes, rest assured it's not only your opinion. You've saved me the trouble of reiterating several of your points. All I want to 'add' is to make explicit the connection between your accurately-observed comments, "All I've read are the rationalizations of people who want to be patted on the back for not having paid retail" and "Those who feel guilty about this conduct [using dealers' expertise, facilities, and time auditioning and selecting, only to go buy used or on the web], should [feel guilty]".

Rogocop, what else are we supposed to conclude about you? You offer multiple insincere gratuitous rationalizations (the burn-in nonsense, Carl and Bubba, the fact that a few of the people you dealt with were not up to snuff, the fact that the first price a shop wants to get is MSRP). You pretend to solicit input about your actions after they have been taken, then attempt to defend yourself by blaming others. The only reasons I can imagine why someone would even post a thread like yours is out of guilt or pride, or likely a combination of the two in your case.

I mean, have you honestly asked yourself why you are telling the forum about this? Do you really think it's going to be news to anyone here that one can buy gear more cheaply on Audiogon, or that dealers want to get a premium for their services? This thread reminds me of nothing so much as a certain one from several months back (which shall go unamed - those of you who were there will know to what I refer) wherein a member (who seems not to post anymore) posted an after-the-fact 'query' seeking justification and kudos for having threatened their dealer with the return of an amplifier if the dealer didn't cough up a free aftermarket power cord, since the member alleged that he was 'outraged' that he 'just discovered' from the dealer that he would 'have to' spend another few hundred bucks to upgrade an 'inferior' stock cord if he wanted best performance, after having just spent thousands on the amp (the kicker was that he had previously posted more than one thread seeking advice on power cord choices, in conjunction with asking about different amps). It's always amazing, even if not surprising, how the prospect of spending money can make even those who have it act like children. At least that guy didn't totally waste his dealer's time, just ours - you've done both.

Yes Rogocop, maybe the dealers played it wrong by first giving you full-boat bids and then seeking to recontact you afterwards, presumably to try and 'earn' your business through a price break. But I know from experience that the only way this would have happened is if the customer appeared not to mind the prospect of paying retail. Many shoppers enjoy projecting the image of someone to whom price is no object until the critical point in the deal is reached, at which time they will lay down their demand and walk away, leaving it to the dealer to try to rescue their large ticket after having put in all their work under the impression that a deal was in the offing. It's a buying strategy that salespeople dislike but expect (although they don't really know if it's coming or whether the customer is actually willing to pay retail) - only you didn't call the bluff or lay down your cards, by refusing to make a counter-offer or take their calls. I am sure that had you acted more like an average customer, and made some mentions of price and/or that you were shopping around, during your auditioning interactions at the shops, you would not have gotten back full-boat bids. Any business owner is perfectly well aware that one of a customer's primary motivations in soliciting multiple bids on the same or similar products and services is to get the lowest price, and since you declined to let them even try, I have a hard time believing you now when you say that it wasn't your intention to leave and buy used all along. Sorry, but either that makes more sense than your story, or you're too naive to be a man in your position - and I don't believe that.

You have nothing to be self-righteous about and nothing to brag about, save for your new system, so enjoy it; I can only hope for your sake that your own business' customers are better as such than you were, or that you and/or your salespeople are better as such than those you dealt with (or at least as forbearing). But you'll probably feel better about yourself if you own up honestly to what you did and reform your shopping habits in the future (hint: either skip the dealer entirely, or give them an even chance at your business). That's your 'reality check'.

P.S. - Edesilva, you da man!

If only it *were* two cents, foreverhifi2000... (or should we call you foreverhifi$200,000 ? ;^)

Where else are negotiations supposed to start from besides MSRP? And there would be more bread in those dealers' kids' mouths had they sold you something. Far be it from me to get on anyone's case for buying through Audiogon, please don't get me wrong. And not everyone enjoys negotiations, and I understand that. But frankly, the discounts you got buying used on the 'net don't seem that far below what you might have gotten new with a warranty had you been game for a little bargaining. I'm glad it seems to have worked out for you, but don't be under any illusions that what you did wasn't using your local dealers for their demonstration facilities and advice, and then take your show on the road to sellers who didn't need that overhead expense to get your business.

Rogocop, your admission that you are new to this hobby, had I known, would have caused me to somewhat temper my criticism (and I never said the dealers were blameless in your case). But neither that fact nor your further attempts at excusing yourself fundamentally change anything though - I stand by what I said, but find your actions maybe a little more understandable as a neophyte. You did what you did, and my guess is you've learned from it already. You might not be back to the dealers regardless, which is fine, but if you do return someday to the one you said you liked, why not give him a fair shot at earning you patronage, instead of just using him and splitting? Just so you know, my own system has been assembled as a mix of new, demo, and used gear, roughly in equal proportions. I do not spend any time in dealers' shops unless I am there to buy something (in other words, as rarely as I can manage), and have never auditioned anything in a store that I later purchased used on the net or anywhere else. I have gone to audiophiles' homes to audition stuff they were selling that I didn't ultimately buy because I didn't prefer it, and will occasionally indulge in listening to something or other at a dealers' if I am in there to purchase something else anyway, but that's about it. If there ever comes a time where I have used a dealer's resources to aid in choosing a piece of gear that I might buy used, I would certainly give the dealer every opportunity to compete for my business, but I really plan on basically avoiding this conflict of interests to begin with. I'm not "out of touch" or an "MSRP salesman", whatever that means (did you skip over all my posts refering to price negotiation, something which is part and parcel of my job?), and neither do I see myself as some kind of saint, I simply have a strong aversion to wasting either a store's time (and being in sales undoubtedly has a lot to do with that fact), or as Twl says, my own.

One of the main advantages of Audiogon for me has been the ability to buy gear used, bring into my system for a long-term evaluation, and then sell it again at basically no loss if I don't want to keep it. This has many advantages when it comes to really getting to know about a piece of gear, but it's a hit-and-miss way to go about building a system, and is definitely not for everyone, especially newbies who desire to assemble everything at once. It's a process that can take years and be in effect ongoing, but is an activity which can be enjoyed in its own right for someone who just likes playing around with gear from time to time. On the other hand, if I had any interest in purchasing a complete HT system and installation, I think I'd just find a dealer I liked and let them handle everything, and I say that as someone who sold new HT systems back in its simpler days. (Oh, and BTW, I've never bought a new car period [total waste of money], and don't go 'test driving' at dealerships for fun or otherwise, though I've assisted others in the process.) 'Psychoanalyzing' a customer, be it you, me, or anyone, really isn't hard when you've dealt with thousands over the years - the same (few in number) basic motivations and behaviors apply universally, and are known to any competent salesperson, so neither my 'insights' nor your reactions are reason to be 'awed' (even sarcastically), and there's no need for either of us to take them personally (which I commend you for seeming not to have done). Anyway, you said you felt guilty right at the top, and have de facto bragged on how much you saved - it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to catch your drift in making this thread, and you know it too. It's not a crime, and you haven't done me wrong, you only (as you say) sought my perspective, and you got it. After you've been at this for a while, it just might become your perspective too. And welcome to the Audiogon forum!

Peace pipe accepted. I generally try to be as much of a Dr. Jeckyl as I can around here, but can go into Mr. Hyde mode when it comes to poor sales practices, for self-evident reasons, so I guess I'm also likely to be set off if I think one of the few decent salesman in this hobby got stiffed. I probably shouldn't though - as I've stated on this forum before, rule #1 is The Customer Is Always Right, and rule #2 is If The Customer Is Wrong, See Rule Number One. It's ultimately the salesman's sole responsibility to reel in guys like you, no excuses.