Which speakers would be a good upgrade in a small

Hi Daveyf,

What's the purpose of the upgrade ? Is it to add the base that you mentioned is lacking, or to improve the imaging ?

My listening room is about 10x12, maybe a little smaller, and I recently added a Rel strata 3 to my spica angelus (the spicas also image nicely at their price point, and have very tight, but rather thin bass, especially when well away from the rear wall). With a small room I was concerned about booming bass, but I have been very pleased with the results. It has also given me complete flexibility in placement of the spica's since I'm not relying on them to produce the bass .... I think that this is very important in small rooms, where putting the speakers near to walls is particularly damaging to the imaging. Just FYI I have the upper roll off on the REL set to 28Hz.

So if you just want to add bass weight then I can recommend the REL ... works great in my small room, no boom, just great depth. I used to think a small room meant the death of good sound (esp bass), but I'm really happy with my current setup. I don't like the music to sound thin, but I could never trade imaging and mid-range for good bass.

Perhaps you could clarify what improvements you seek in the upgrade.

One of my rooms is small with high ceilings and the ceiling height is the real culprit and I tried many but settled on the Martin Logan Aerius because it is tall and presents a good soundatage in regards to the ceiling height. My friend has a pair of Piega 5's which are very very good in a room like that but they are expensive.

Daveyf, you have made some really good choices with your existing components... if you want to treat yourself to something really special in terms of new speakers, I would highly recommend that you contact Mike McCall at Shamrock Audio.. His Eire loudspeaker is outstanding and the whole buying process from picking out veneers to Mike explaining the speaker design is a first rate experience and education.

More specifically,

The Shamrock Audio Eires are extremely balanced throughout their operating range (38-Hz-20kHz).. they use two excellent ScanSpeak drivers..beautiful construction, including solid wood front baffles and high quality veneers...they have been favorably compared to speakers such as the Sonus Faber Electa Amators... you get a 30-day money back guarantee if not fully satisfied.. I have successfully used them with various amplifiers both tube and solid-state on different types of music (jazz, chamber, rock, folk, opera). In my system the Eires are the least expensive component but the most cherished. I use them in a small-medium sized room without needing a subwoofer..I have had them for two years and have been completely satisfied. The Eires are not inexpensive ($3000-$4000 depending on the veneers you request) but I really feel that I got what I paid for and that I wasn't paying extra for advertising and hype.

There are audition sites around the US..you can contact Shamrock Audio to see if there is one near you... in fact, if you have any interest at all just call Mike and talk to him...good luck

Good grief, Daveyf, you've got some killer equipment there!

I'm not sure of your price range, but I carry a speaker that works exceptionally well in small rooms. It's the Gradient Revolution, and retails for 4.5 grand.

This is one of the most intelligently designed speakers I've ever encountered.

I'd like to try to explain why I think the Revolutions are worthy of consideration (if they're in your price range), since a dealer simply spouting praise for his products hardly inspires great confidence anymore. Hopefully my explanation will offer useful information, whether the Revolutions make your shortlist or not.

The bass loading technique is very unusual - the speaker is a dipole up to 200 Hz, and the bass modules can be placed very close to either the side or rear walls if necessary. Since dipole bass is directional (in a figure-8 pattern), by aiming the bass modules you can dial in the bass response to be just right at the listening position. And dipoles excite room resonances much less than monopole bass because their radiation pattern puts less bass energy out into the room's low-frequency standing wave modes. The result is clean bass with excellent pitch definition even in small rooms because the notes decay more naturally.

Above 200 Hz, the Revolutions use a very high quality Seas concentric midwoof/tweet. The concentric design means the speaker is going to be coherent at any listening distance - you don't have to get far away for the drivers to integrate. And the mid/tweet module uses pressure-relief loading, which gives a cardioid radiation pattern. This significantly reduces the midwoof's radiation to the rear of the speaker, once again making it easier to position the speaker close to a side or rear wall.

Now, there is a remarkable synergy between the dipole bass and cardioid mid/tweet module. You see, they each put roughly the same amount of energy into the reverberant field. Most loudspeakers make no effort to get the reverberant field right, but one of the key differences between live and reproduced sound is that, with live music, the reverberant field has pretty much the same tonal balance as the direct sound. The Revolutions duplicate this quality, and the result is a speaker that is very easy to listen to long-term. You see, when there is a significant discrepancy between the direct and reverberant fields, the eventual result is listening fatigue.

I first heard the Revolutions at the 2001 CES. I was not in the market for a speaker in their price range. But just walking down the hall towards the room, the sound coming out into the hallway was refreshingly natural-sounding. Then even though the speakers were in one of the smaller rooms at the show, they sounded so natural and enjoyable I kept coming back to the room over and over. The bass was better than I heard in any of the small rooms, and only a few of the big rooms sounded as good. Now, this was the Active version of the Revolution, so it was a bit more expensive, and credit is due the fine Gamut amplification. But the Revolutions are among the very few dynamic speakers this die-hard planarhead could get excited about.

Here is the link to Gradient's Revolution page: http://www.gradient.fi/En/Products/Revo/Revo1.htm

If you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to take a shot at them.

Best of luck in your quest!

Thanks everyone for your input. I will definitely try and hear the Eire's and the Gradients.
The Aerius is a speaker that I have had extensive experience with, since I owned a pair. They are nice but I now prefer dynamic drivers to electro's. Just a matter of taste I guess.
What I am trying to accomplish is the ability that the Hales have but in a small room. I am loath to give up the Hales, but they will not work in this room due to physical size. So, if I can repricate the overall depth and palpability of this speaker in this small room, I will be pleased. I will be sitting about five feet back from the speaker and the room will only allow the speaker to be seperated by about 5'.
Bass would be nice, but I do not really have it now, and I also do not want to give up midrange and imageing ability. Thanks again for all the suggestions.

My room is only 10.5 X 11 and the talon peregrines sitting on a desk are producing the best bass i have ever heard. I'd get em if i were you.... Comparable to WATT 6s in every regard and betters them in many ways. They would be the best purchase you will ever make, and also jeff rowland uses them as his references to voice his amplifiers. - Ian

How about Piega P2 LTD monitors? They have nice bass extension and incredible midrange and treble: open, pristine and pure. Remind me of my Kharma Ceramique 1.0s. Also try Reference 3A Royal Masters; incredibly round tone and great bass extension in a monitor (bigger than average). I have the P2 LTDs in a 12x14x9 room on solid stands and they are spot on with jazz, piano, pop. I'm using the Rowland M2 with BPS to drive this system. ProAc 1SC or 2S may also be good.

Another vote for Piega's