All I can say is a LOT of things in hi-end audio don't make sense. That's why the folks here always say ... let your ears decide!
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Maybe, but most VPI owners/users do not have the tri-pulley feature or the two-motor TNT model...
The tri-pulley setup was passive and the idea was to put even pressure on the main bearing (actually, no pressure) by balancing the force around the platter. It's a good idea even if its implementation was not perfect, i.e. it may have created more problems than it solved.
I'm not sure about the pros and cons of the two-motor design, but then, I'm not a turntable designer. My guess is that you (Edle) are not one either...
I think you are right about the three pulley system. Even though the key way bearing noise could be transmitted would be through the belts, it could have been audible. I agree with Plato that the three pulley system was probably developed to avoid one-sided pressure on the bearing. After VPI changed to another bearing system, this was no longer necessary, so the three pulley system isn't incorporated in recent VPI designs.
You raise two points about the dual motor system: speed and noise. The speeds of the motors are coupled through the common "pulley," which is actually a flywheel. The stronger motor may be supplying more torque, but the flywheel is rotating at only a single speed at any given time. I believe the weaker motor is getting a little boost, and the stronger motor is working a slightly greater load. The two are probably rotating at the same speed. The speed is fine tuned at the platter to be correct using the SDS controller and a strobe system.
The noise of the two motors would be transmitted primarily through the belts. As you know, the stand alone motor chassis doesn't touch the plinth. The noise transmission from the motors is further buffered by the flywheel, i.e., the noise must go through the flywheel first, then the belt, to reach the platter. Perhaps the decision to use two small motors instead of one big motor was partially based on a lower noise level generated by two small motors. Where does the noise go? Well, I think a lot of it actually does disappear into the air. As Pmotz suggested, how much gets transmitted through to the platter is better judged by listening rather than analyzing the engineering. I would guess not many people have really noticed a lot of motor noise. Have you had a listen yourself?
The two motors make a lot of noise, the pulley makes noise too and the platter bearing also makes more noise.
If everything equal, I believe a single motor with a long belt that drive a platter will be far more quieter than the VPI 2 motors/pulley/platter approach.
The major problem with the two motors/pulley/platter turntable is that the motors housing and pulley housing are placing so close together than you cannot isolate them in their own separate isolation platform. Now the 2 motors housing/pulley/platter & plinth sit on the same platform or stand.....and all the noise transmit back to the turntable through the platform.
No matter how hard he tried, the noise still exist and looks like it is getting worse.
That's why it don't not make sense to me. Just plain common sense.
Edle, the tone of your reply makes me think you have some sort of grievance with VPI that may be unrelated to the engineering issues at hand (or ear)... I highly doubt that the "noise" is getting worse in spite of your argument to the contrary.
Aside from the 3-pully system, if you had noise issues with the VPI perhaps your setup of the critical elements was not optimal. At least that's my take on it.
I did find that on my TNT Mk. 5, not using a flywheel was better. I cant quite express the difference since it was subtle but, the sound in general was more realistic.
I have never heard the motor on my TT make noises or heard it through the speakers, even in the very softest passages in the music. I can only presume that the problems Edle describes were due to faulty setup or malfunctioning equipment.
Happy Thanksgiving to all and best regards.
I applaud you for thinking things through and using logic as a guide. In audio stuff, in my opinion, there is a lot of "voodo" equipment out there that is sold to the most gullible.
That said, a lot of times what ends up being 'right' in any field of evdeavor is counter intuitave. In my opinion, VPI designs (and all other quality designs) tend to be based upon finding what sounds the best to the designer. This involves a lot of trial and error and the end result can end up being very different than would be predicted just by speculation.
Edle, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you're following up to explain a comment tossed out in this other thread, just as people posting to that thread asked you to do:
Assuming this is the case, congratulations and thank you. You've done a nice job explaining your opinion. As a suggestion, this may have made more sense to folks if you had posted it as a follow-up post to that same thread.
The responses you've already received pretty well cover any thoughts I would offer in reply to your arguments about the VPI designs.
OK, so I'm a nurd.
Was walking the dog this morning and got to thinking about your theoretical objection (i.e. 800 rpm = bearing noise).
There are two ways to get high effective inertia, one is to spin something really heavy, or with a really large radius at low speed, the other is to spin something lighter or smaller in radius at high speed. If you want to get really nurdy, Torque = (Inertial mass) * RPM.
When you go with the low speed approach you have to deal with a few problems, one is that there are physical limits on maximum size of a turntable system, another is that precision is more difficult to maintain as you scale upward, a third is that if your device spins on rolling bearings then the number of bearings (and the chance of getting one too far out or round)goes up as the bearing count goes up. When you go with the higher rpm approach some of the design challenges are reduced in magnitude and you can get higher effective inertia than would otherwise be possible for practical reasons.
In any case, still think that the proof is in the pudin, but even from pure speculation you can make a case for either approach.
" VPI turntable again......
I make my judgement on any product based on observation and common scense. I never own a VPI turntable...".
No one, including you, can speak about supposed noise ( through the speaker ) in a turntable only by " common scense ".
All the turntables makes noises and these noises comes from different places in the TT, this is not the subject: the subject is if all those noises affect the sound reproduction and if we can hear those noises.
Till to now I never hear from any one that the VPI TTs had
a noise that can hear through the speakers ( BTW, I never hear it for any top Highend TT ).
Which your point? that you are against VPI TT?. Not big deal.
Why don't ask directly to VPI Industries the S/N ratio value of their TTs, I'm sure that this value it will be around 80db ( DIN B ) and it is inaudible for you or for any one, but dogs.
Now, in the remote case that you already hear that supposed VPI noise then tell us ( link by link on the audio chain sytem ) the whole audio system where you hear it and do it, too, a favor to all VPI owners: do a report to VPI Industries.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
"...The latest step in the TNT V turntable's evolution is the TNT V-HR. The "HR" stands for "Hot Rod" and reflects a number of small and not-so-small changes to the basic TNT V. The most obvious of these are the omission of the three-pulley subchassis and the lack of a removable tonearm board. The subchassis was dropped because, with the V-HR's new Rulon bearing (now included in the standard TNT V as well), its load balancing was no longer required. And, according to Weisfeld, the three pulleys "added noise, in the form of a subtle graying of the sound." ..."
VPI TNT V-HR Turntable& JWM Tonearm, Brian Damkroger ,Stereophile Vol.24 #12,12/01.
As the proud owner of the VPI Aries 2(one motor) I can hear no noise with my naked ear. Moreover I think the belt is incapable of causing that massive platter to vibrate.
Ah, Edle, you were doing so well, and then you blew it:
If not, you don't know what you are talking about?This comment is hardly constructive, and it certainly suggests that it is YOU who doesn't know what you're talking about.
I live with an air bearing platter turntable (Walker Proscenium), and I find the VPI turntables to be very quiet and capable of creating a "very black" noise background. Overall, they are excellent turntables. Have you ever listened to one; it certainly sounds like you have not and that you're operating totally from a theoretical perspective, and a not very well informed one at that.
The complaints about the VPI HR-X are fairly standard: it lacks anti-skating; it has too many motors; it has a lowmass acrylic platter; it has too big a plinth; unipivot arms are deleterious; and the air bladders don't screen out vibrations effectively. These complaints are made ad nauseam. The only properly machined table is the SME 30.
Yet I have the VPI and it sounds wonderful. So who, or what, are you gonna believe?
Edle, I thought I agreed with you at least with respect to three motor TNT. One version of which, if I remember correctly, was dumped on Audio Adivisor at or below cost. Nor do I subscribe to VPI's assertion that antisakte is unecessary. I had that discussion with the designer of the Graham tonearm.
To suggest that one lacks credibility because he has not heard air or magnetic bearing turntable is ludicrous. What about the LINN or SOTA with Sapphire bearing?
Dear Edle:****" Double the noise output. Where did all the motor noise goes? Again, you can hear it from you speaker."*****
This is your whole point. Well, anybody ( VPI owners )have any compliants about.
***"I make my judgement on any product based on observation and common scense."****
At least on this VPI subject your " observation and common scense " it is totally wrong. It is very clear that you don't have any idea or know how about your point. Period.
* Hi Gregadd, some other time. Tks for everything. *
Regards and always enjoy the music.
* The motor and platter/plinth must be on their own
sand damped isolation platform.
Not true with the air suspended VPI turntable. I have my HR-X sitting on a standard rack. You can rap on the shelf and no sound is heard through the speakers with the volume turned more than half way up. If that does not produce any noise through the system, then how in the world is motor noise going to be audible. My table is dead quiet. I have owned several models of the TNT. There has never been audible noise from the motor or flywheel on any of them that could be heard from the speakers. My system is capable of high resolution and if it was making noise such as you claim, I would think I would have heard it.
As an aside, no turntable including the Rockport, the Walker and the Verdier is perfect. They all have some sort of compromise.
VPI produces an excellent product. If you don't like it that is fine. However, it sounds like you have some sort of axe to grind.
Ya know BAMAFAN, you are really starting to TICK ME OFF!! Where do you get off making statements like "They [all turntables] all have some sort of compromise?
Have you ever heard my Close & Play? Better yet, have you ever heard my Close & Play with a Cowsils 45 or my special edition of Rick Dee's "Disco Duck?" I can assure you it has NO compromises! Sheeesh!
This is the most entertaining thread I've read in weeks.
Edle, you're kinda like the person that knocked off Ken Jennings on Jeopardy, only different. BTW, I'm very interested in the Verdier tables. Please elaborate on your experiences with it, what arm, cart., phono stage, etc. and how does it compare sonically to other tables you've HEARD? Please name the tables you compare to.
Raul, never thought I'd say this, but welcome to our world.
This is grrrreat! Cheers,
If the VPI TNT-3 with the tri-pulley system makes noise I certinally cannot hear it even when I turned on the table & tried to listen to it spin. The backround noise is vertually undectable. I feel VPI makes a fine prouduct especially with their lower priced scout model. I think that you have something against the company that has nothing to do with the reproduction of music.