Great table! Both of the DJ's you quoted above are spot-on. Got a couple of Nottingham's for my dance club and the PRAT was so bad that no one would dance. (We never did find the "ON" switch.) After a month of back-scratching and needle dropping and vinyl dropping, both of them finally broke. Worthless! (To be fair to Nottingham, I think they broke when my DJ was doing his Jimmy Hendrix impersonation. But still, that is no excuse.)
BTW- Now that we can play backwards with the 1200's, I do want to confirm for everyone that Paul is, in fact, dead. Strange that Rochlin and Thorstens are keeping it a secret....
This is probably the most ridiculous thread that I have read since I became a member of the Audiogon. I suppose now we should all grow our hair real long, buy SL1200's, Sansui 200w receivers and Cerwin Vega speakers, and can our Rockports,Tenors, and Kharmas. :-) lolololol
Francisco, you can modify your SL1200 even further:
Due to a stable speed and pitch control capability you can use your TT as a stand-alone motor to a different DIY turntable. I've seen a bunch of successful designs here on the web but don't recall of the top of my head.
My wrong Michell is going through the little mods and sounds better and better!
What? Does this mean that I CAN'T do my Hendrix impression using my Nottingham Spacedeck and expect it to hold up under the strain? This really hurts, and I shall always be bitter as a result. ;-)
Having worked in FM progressive radio during the days of turntables, many of the turntables and cartridges that were used traded off sound quality for durability, same consideration for a DJ at a dance club. Premium audiophile turntable & cartridge set-ups wouldn't last a day in these applications! Besides, back-cueing and slip starting are not practices of the home audiophiles. (Remember the standard of radio turntable cartridges in the '70's...the Stanton 681 EEE?) This is not a put down of the Technics SL-1200, it is just used in a different application than home audiophile...and it does its intended job quite well! And please, call it a stylus, and NOT a needle! And yes, the backwards message on ELO's "Fire on High" is really cool (heard it one night on a friend's Thorens belt drive). Unfortunately, this intro is missing on many shorter edited versions!
You upgraded to a Michell, Mara? Congratulations!!! Now you need to buid a base with suspension--should be a good project. BTW, I have nothing against JA Michell TTs...I *do* like them. Very solidly built--no glass or particle board...
There's all these SP-10s for sale out there but the chipsets are no longer made by Technics. Once it malfunctions the TT is dead for good.
The tonearm damper works wonders and the Bob Regal foot next to the tonearm gimbal improves clarity by a good measure. I have been experimenting with a rare non-resonant wood I brought from home but it warps severely. Used as a platform it greatly improved clarity but it lifted the entire TT up in the air!!!
If one must have a DD then get a Denon. Now there's a TT, and they are still made!
"Don't knock it if you don't know it" ... have you owned a Rega table ?
Also I don't know why you always use the glass and particle board argument against the Rega. Is there anything wrong with these materials ?
But at the end of the day I like my Rega and you like your Technics so we're both happy ... why do you insist on soliciting flames ? You're like the woman who wears a low cut top and a wonderbra then complains that men "look at her that way".
Twl- You don't have to make the upgrade to the 1200, the Sansui and the Cerwin-Vegas at the same time. You can trade up to each one at a time as funding permits. With any luck, your hair will be long enough just about the time that the system is complete. If there is any cash left, get some Peter Max black-light posters.
Thanks, Jimbo. I was beginning to get "audiophilia nervosa". FYI, I used to have all that stuff years ago, including the blacklight posters and a strobe light. Inna gadda davida sounded perfect that way. Those were the days!
An anti-Rega/breaking the chains of Technics oppression thread? Really worth while, especially since most of your posts pertain to the same topic. Good tact...way to promote a TT and justify your choice...send out fliers. Everyone who posts Rega is the best table in its price range bears the risk of getting flack from you (and whomever else), so what?
I've had Rega P3 for a few weeks and realized that it was a mistake for me not to pass on Rega for more serious analogue equipment. Rega played fine only on the first groves of the record but then everything degraded and any of my cartridge mounting excersises weren't successful. So the only thing that left from my Rega is arm that had been recently(3 months ago) modified with Incognito kit and heavy Clearaudio counterweight.
So as you can see I'm not Rega enthusiast as well and I do believe that the motor they use can be successfuly applied onto kid's toys and the glass platter is the most successful media to transfer all its vibration onto the vinyl surface.
A fellow audiophile who is very knowledgeable--and a 1200 owner--e-mailed me once that trying to make people see this fact was like having a conversation with elderly people at an asylum. The lights are on but there's nobody home...
Why someone like Thorsten would post that "A Rega Planar is a cheap bearing and Motor stuck into a piece of MDF, the engineering content for all intents is ZERO." ? Because it's *obvious*. Yet nobody has addressed here that the Rega's are indeed overpriced.
That's the point--it's very simple and straightforward. Voodoo rules, and that's why this hobby is dying at a very fast pace. I was just having lunch this weekend with one of us and were talking about how this hobby is dying.
Overpriced components get rave reviews and the mass just follows...there is a cult for "high end" which obliterates good, reasonably priced products--just look at the madness over cables. Twisted like this, stranded like that--when lots of pure, straight copper does the trick...just try some Tice interconnects and find out: simple design, straightforward construction--and he's calling it quits on cables.
I am grateful my system is close to completion---that's why I don't post that much. I am learning from a select group of people who are *for* the music.
I have an interesting observation: I brought two shelves made out of a rare non-resonant tropical wood. The wood was purchased and planed at an artisanal sawmill. I asked in several forums about using Bose 901's for home theater. "Coincidentally", the only two people that said it was a good move are the ones that I was having shelves made for...
I totally disagree with the idea that Rega is overpriced. They are some of the lower priced tables on the market. The Nad version is commonly seen for around $250! How much cheaper do you want? The complaint of quality level is unfounded because the price is so low that it will never have the quality level of a Linn, Clearaudio, or anything like that. But, I don't see any $250 Rockports out there for sale. And I might add that the Rega arms are found on the most high end tables quite frequently. I don't have a Rega, but I used to work in an audio shop that sold them. I A/B's them against many other tables, including Technics, and they consistently provided better sound than the mass market stuff. A Rega Planar 2 will destroy a Denon DD turntable that was 3 times the price of the Rega. And the Denon will eat up any Technics SL1200. I have personally witnessed this dozens of times. If Thorsten actually believes what he writes, then his ears are seriously in question. Another thing that cracks me up is the mention that MDF is a cheap substandard material in comparison to the injection molded plastic of the SL1200. In fact, I can't even believe that this conversation is taking place! What planet are you guys on? Do you really think that the Technics SL1200 is an unknown secret that nobody ever heard about? Do you think that if it was really good that vitually no audiophile would have it in his system? The last time I had this argument was in 1980. This is not just beating a dead horse, this is digging one up that has been buried for 20 years and beating it some more! If you think the SL1200 is good, then go ahead and listen to it. But don't embarass yourselves in front of the whole world by publicizing it. I'll agree that the SL1200 is a workhorse that is good for "disco scratching" and "back cueing" and other abusive activities, but I am never going to buy the idea that is even approximates the level of a good sounding turntable. I have compared and I know.
Psychicanimal has always pushed his TT on others here.
His bias is obvious as is Marakanetz's comments.
I have only seen a Technics on TV in rap videos.I have never heard one or seen one in a high end shop.Maybe that says alot,maybe not.
Many bash Stereophile reviews.Thats fine but one reviewer who has always seemed to be on the ball is Mike Fremer.He hears and reviews more tables than probably anyone in the world.It would be my guess he has had contact with and heard the Technics tables somewhere in his travels.It seems if these tables were that good he would have had one in his hands by now.
Everyone knows the Rega reviews by now.No need to defend Rega guys.
C'mon guys, give Psychic a break. He's extremely knowledgeable. For example- he's the only one who knew that the 1200 has a direct drive motor that doesn't need to contact the platter in any way to drive it. Magnetic Pulse Drive I think he called it. Very high tech- Scotty used similar technology when the Warp Drive was about to blow and it kept Capt Kirk from falling into Klingon hands. (I saw it with my own eyes and I'm sure that Psychic can verify it, too.)
Also, if you get the 1200 and do all the mods yourself, it'll be better than a TNT and you'll have only spent about $1500. Better yet, when you go to sell it, it'll fetch upwards of around $150. Talk about a great investment!!
Please, everyone, do yourselves a favor and get yourself an SL1200 and a pair of 901's now and avoid the rush!!
The comments on the glass and thr particle board being cheap are correct. That's why Rega is a good design ... because the money is spent where it matters. On the arm. A good design spends the money where it is needed and saves where it is not.
The technics is also a design classic ... but for a different market. Why can't we all be happy ?
It's all true, Sean, but however the vast part of analogue performance depends on turntable rather than the arm meaning that Rega is nothing worth but the arm.
Oh my God, now looking at my TNT4/Graham2 I realize the error of my ways! Yes, yes, I know, not fair in a 1200/Rega comparison...
Yes, the high end is an incestuous marketing mill, but that doesn't necessarily negate all "hi end" products. That said, in my second system I love my 15 yr old LS3/5A spkrs, so I know what you mean.
I'm glad you guys are happy with your 1200's and your Bose 901 HT set-ups and the true money you have saved, but, if you don't mind, I'll pass...
Marakenetz - What other TTs in the price range of the P3 have you experienced? You say that you should have invested more, so are you giving a negative evaluation of the the Rega, or the entire range of TTs in its range? Most have roughly the same design, except Psychic's fave. So how do you like the Technics, sonically?
'Overpriced components get rave reviews and the mass just follows...there is a cult for "high end" which obliterates good, reasonably priced products'
Like Bose, right?
Maraknetz ... that's why the TT doesn't cost much more than the arm. What's your answer to Ohlala's question ?
If you're comparing a P3 with a Sondek that's not really a very sensible comparison.
can't you guys have these conversations in a more civil manner?
Hey, with music and sound there is no right or wrong. These threads confuse me when people say this or that is "the best ever" or for that matter "the worst ever".
If someone enjoys their Bose isn't that all that really matters? If they don't see the reason to spend thousands more, in their mind/ear/heart, because the difference, if any, is not worth it, who cares? They are still music lovers and I think we should all have a group hug and not be so nasty.
Hey, I have a friend who is a ture music enthusiast and has thousands of 45s, LPs, and CDs which he has spent years collecting. He spends several hundred dollars a month on new music and is one of the most knowledgeable people I know on almost any music subject. He goes to live concerts several times a month and is constantly looking for the unknown stars. He has a web radio site "musicaljustice" (go to live365.com – his station is mostly Alternative Country his latest interest---better than you might expect if you aren’t familiar with it). He originally started collecting #1 hits on 45s and has everyone stretching back, I think, into the 50s and up to when he couldn't get them anymore. Now I say this to say that he has the most worthless junk equipment – no name crap from hither and yon – way worse than the Sony boom box I bought my daughter 5 years ago. He is happy, he likes his music, and it isn’t important to him to spend money on equipment.
Now for me, I think man, you owe it to yourself to get at least an entry level "high-end" system, but he just doesn’t care. And you know what…that’s ok.
Same thing in these forum threads. Opinions are like !#$!$ (well you know) everyone has one. It doesn’t matter. If the Techniques is good to one person then God Bless the guy/gal. If it is Bose, then so be it. I have heard some Bose stuff that is actually pleasant…I can see why the normal consumer public is taken by it…it isn’t ALL marketing (although they are the best marketers). Now Bose wouldn’t suit me and if I could steer a friend or family member away I would but if they are satisfied great! The Bose guy in this thread made a good decision…for him. :)
There is another side to this. It is for those who are happy with less expensive stuff or stuff that the mainstream phile would usually consider bogus. Its no better for them to thumb their noses at the stupid philes who are all caught up with industry hype, show, and spending money at “the expense of the real truth…music.” Hey if a guy/gal wants a Rockport TT and 80k speakers, etc then God bless him/her if he/she can make it happen. I just hope both sides are satisfied. After all, isn’t this the real trick…contentment and fun. It isn’t big or little, expensive or cheap, SS or tube, analog or digital, CD or Redbook it is about having fun (however you define it) and being content in the pursuit.
I say, lets all just step back a pace and appreciate that we all have a potentially great hobby weather it is music only or gear only or both. Remember we are all a village…no wait, that is a different speech. :)
Can’t we all just get along….
The group hug guy,
I hope you were not refering to my post as I really don't care what people like. Like all avangelists Psychicanimal likes to polarize the issue and i think his motives are based less on fact than on justification. That is what spurred my comment. In the past, i have read these forums and have noted that whithin them there is a fairly even balance between people who prefer Technics and the people who prefer the Rega-types from people who have heard both. Too bad their opinions also are very black and white. There are some who dismiss the Technics w/out having heard one, and i think that is ridiculus, but this thread is just as ridiculus. I don't see the point in constantly rehashing this issue, especially on this site where so few even own a Technics. What do you expect everyone to do? Say, 'Oh damn I own a P3! I like it, but I better go out and buy a Technics because Thorsten and some DJs say its better." You're not proving anything, Psychicanimal, get over it.
...Can't say anything about SL1200 but the other Technics DJ TT(don't remember the precise model number) with DME3009 S-shaped tonearm even hooked up with Sumiko BP didn't impress me at all. My friend used to be a DJ and now he's getting step-by-step a home 2ch. He's replaced his Technics table with vintage Oracle Alexandria(now that's a great performer!) So as you see I can't be SL1200 or DD enthusiast.
Let's have a case with no such sencitive as P3/Sondek comparison and compare instead Rega 25/RB600 with Sondek/basic or VPI HW19/RB250 and see what wins.
Or simply what will be better having Rega 9/RB250 or Rega P3/RB900? In the last case if you will invest the difference between RB900 and RB250 towards the cartridge you will certainly be on the higher level of performance.
What I mean is that the Rega decks very often logically "factor out" like in algebraic fractions on the market, meaning that by getting a cheaper arm and the better table you will benefit much more than the other way arround.
I didn't mean to hurt people that deside to stay with P3 or other Regas and pleased with it's performance. I've just made a conclusions from my research and experiments made within a couple of years.
Bravo cd. It's a hobby with lots of opinions because there are no two ears, systems or acoustics which are alike. Psychicanimal, could you share what kind of wood you are using. I'm in the process of putting a platform together and would love to learn more about my options. Thanks.
No I wasn't refering to your post. Honest difference of opinions without ridicule and sarcasm make for great learning don't you think?
I was referring to the generally combative and sarcastic belittling stuff.
Bravo, Ohlala- You're post on 5/3 hits the nail on the head. Also, in a previous post, Psychic said he loves to stir up controversy, then step back and watch the fur fly. Unfortunately, little of that is constructive, just as this thread is not very constructive. (Nor was intended to be.)Even more unfortunate is that some of our younger brethren who are trying to experience analog for the first time are getting information that is less than accurate.
I don't think anyone here (except for one or two) really cares who has what table for what reason. Rational and open discussion, opinion and facts have generally been the hallmark of this analog forum. But there are a a couple of crusaders who have been fast and loose with facts and, when legitmately questioned, resort only to attacking other's choices. For example, I wasn't aware that I am like an elderly person in an insane asylum just because I have a belt drive table.
This thread was designed to be silly. And silly it is.
And now it's time for for me to get back to gumming my applesauce here at Belleview....
would i ever buy a technics 1200 'table w/the kabusa.com fluid-damper mod? prolly not. why? cuz, for my $800, i think i can do better w/a used deck. oracle, well-tempered, vpi, linn, to name a few. *BUT* - if my choices were limited to brand-new turntables, the kabusa 1200 would be at the top of my list. maybe i'm mistaken, but this, i think, is what the psychic is getting at. have y'all ever heard a technics 'table? i had the opportunity to audition an older sp10 in an audiophile-approved set-up a while back, & it was 1st-class all the way... for an "entry-level" 'table, or for newbies getting into vinyl that don't wanna break the bank, or take a chance w/a used deck, the 1200 will be far superior to any other new deck at its price-point, imo...
I'm with TWL,ya what he said, and as for the rest of you guys saying can't we all get along and say whatever the other guy has is ok for him and it's about the music. I say this is Audiogon, if you do a search this is what you will find
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Synergistic Research, Harmonic Technology, JM Lab, High end components, Audiogon, Stereophile,
High end audio right, not Rolling Stone magazine, It's about trying to reproduce our music the best we can within the constraints of our budget. If getting the best out of your stereo is not your thing, then what are you doing here?
People have different opinions that are based on their experiences. That is why we have these discussions so we can help each other learn how to improve our systems, for less money,and do it right the first time. I have learned alot here and my Stereo is sounding a lot better thanks to Tom W. Lyons
Yes we also talk about the music we love here as well.
If you can't understand why Bose speakers are overpriced then you need to do some research on this site instead of making posts.
People go to Circuit City and Best Buy and spend a good sum of cash on midfi, when if they had more knowledge of what was out there or here at Audiogon, could be enjoying Hi fidelity instead,
that's my point.
I have a couple of minor comments. Back in the day, (way back actually) a good friend invited me over to hear his new Bose 501's and his collection or Rush LP's (can't remember the TT). I was blown away! It was the first time I had the experience of a "sound stage".
Would they compete with the system I have now? Not even close! Was it bad? No, it was wonderful (that is, I was full of wonder at the possibilities of two channel).
As to TT's, I have heard many good ones, all sounded a little different. I now have two that I trade in and out of rotation with the rest of my gear. An up-graded Rega P-25 (incognito wireing, heavyweight, VTA adjustment) and a Thorens TD-520 with a SME 3012-R arm. I also trade out two cart's, a Dynavector 17-D Karat and a Clearaudio Discovery. This gives me four combinations that are all different, and IMHO, all very good. I honestly do not have a firm opinion on which combo is "best."
I believe it boils down to "appreciation." When I put on my 30+ year old copy of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, recorded live, I get a contact high that is both wonderful (see full of wonder, above) and legal. And, I truly appreciate, that.
Good listening, Dave.
Gosh, I must have mellowed out some, since I first started posting here on Audiogon. Looks like I used to be a real hell-raiser. Lately I haven't been looking for too many arguments.
I'll wager that, instead, you've come to realize that the effort required to extricate yourself from a futile argument, once joined, is rarely rewarded (save the possible internal satisfaction).
David, you are absolutely right. Why do you think the Roni pulled out this inactive thread (13 months!) from the archives? He wants the argument to keep going on and on and on--and he's never heard a modded 1200! Get real, Roni. You're not rocking any more...
Here's some interesting remarks posted by DJ Donovan on Zaikeman's review of the 1200's fluid tonearm damper. After reading them you'll reallize why I love that gadget so much!http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1033259530&read&3&4&
The fluid damper transforms the 1200 into a whole different beast--that's why I can hear the innermost grooves of a Barbara Streisand album w/out any breakup nor mistracking. Streisand's voice *is* an obstacle course!
David,yes most times in these cases as TWL has learned it is better to stay silent. But alas, sometimes you read something so ridiculous your conscience will not let you stay silent.
About the Bose 501, yes I agree they were a good speaker in their day, times have changed, but Yamaha speakers were never any good.
Psych, I have never said I think the Creature is a bad Turntable, in fact I belive it sounds good. I have in the past told people asking 1200 questions to contact you and Zaikeman for your mod ideas.
What's the matter Psych, did I hit a nerve?
You are now starting to resort to abuse.
well guys, peace and love.
I don't recall **anyone** ever having said that the 1200 **isn't** a good value in it's $400 (retail) price range. I've recommended good used ones to folks who are looking to get a start (or re-start)in vinyl. At around $150 (used) it's a great start which allows one to decide if and how they want to move forward from there without losing a large initial investment.
The modded 1200 is not a starter TT--it's a high end deck.
we know, we know Psych, he is only trying to start something.
DJ Donovan's review of the fluid damper was really something. Now you can believe I can play the innermost grooves of a Streisand album w/ no breakup. It's all a matter of addressing a component's weaknesses. Hey, there's Origin Live mods for the Rega arms and as far as understand, it's the RB-250 the one that sounds better, isn't it?
I will take the creature to Sean's place--how about that?
Geez, I agree with and supported virtually all of Psych's very first line that the 1200 is one of the best in it's price range and I recommend it, and you say I'm trying to "start something" because I didn't bend over all the way and say that it is absolutely the best table in the universe in it's price point? You boys are wound up WAY too tight.
Y'know, there are hundreds of recommendations here monthly to get someone started in all sorts of price ranges, yet not one of the thousands of Rega or Music Hall or Basis owners whines, cries and carries on like you kids when their table isn't universally proclaimed "the one and only Truth, the Way, the Light and the End-All and Be-All". You're just going to have to get over the fact that there are alot of darn good choices out there and the world (and records) doesn't revolve on what you *think* you know to be The Only Thing For Everyone For All Time.
Regards to everyone else-
Psych- The Origin Live RB-250 is considered better than the OL RB-300. I don't recall the details, but it had alot to do with the stub configuation being more conducive to improvements. There were/are more than one level of upgrades than OL could do and the 250 enabled them to do more. From there, OL took the 250 a step further into a Silver(?) series (not to be confused with the current Silver model), which might be the predecessor to their latest off-the-shelf offerings. Might want to check their website.
Psych, you need to read this thread, sorry I thought you had seen it already.
Strange Tonearm Tweak. Long
WOWZA!I am still wondering if this is just a ruse to ruffle a few feathers or a serious debate. Anyone involved in this silly thread live in Ontario's Golden Horshoe? IF so then lets do a shootout!I'll tell you what...My nephew still has my late father inlaws techniques 1200 table which I recently set up with a Fidelity Research FR-1 mk2 cartridge.Yes- it is a decent table and certainly well made with a good bearing with perfect stability and pitch.One of the best DJ tables ever made for that application. A very good friend has a rega 3 with a modified rega tonearm and a grado reference statement series that I also set up . I also have a grado reference that I use as a back-up.We can use my grado in the 1200 and my friend will bring his rega.I have a digital jewelers scale and a dennison protractor for optimim set up.For you guys in the techniques camp....I am betting 5 to 1 the rega will stomp all over it! Bring your dough gang.Noooooo... I do not own a rega nor do I use one and have absolutely no affilliation with any commercial interest in the rega.As a matter of fact,the rega wouldn't even be my first choice at that price point!However... You can be rest assured the glass and mdf will unconditionally smoke the 1200.Absolutely no contest! PS: don't forget to bring your dough gang.
the difference between my technics 1200 and my teres 245 is mind boggling. i don't think i could ever listen to the technics again. ... EVER. it sounded that bad vs. the teres.
i know its not really a fair comparison, but the technics isn't all that. i liked my cds on a wadia 860x better than i liked vinyl on the 1200. the teres stomps my wadia...
You can't use unshielded Grado cartridges on a Technics 1200. The issue here is that most people can't recognize quality and/or restrictions amongst components, like in the previous example. If asked to explain the reasons why they are pro or against this or that TT the majority won't be able to explain. Like Viridian said--they just parrot out TT choices.
This subject is very important, because we cannot always A/B everything we want--and this is especially so with TT & cartridges. Right now the only two TTs that have upgrade paths are the 1200 and the VPI (is SOTA still around?).
Dennis, interconnects and tonearm wire differences between the Teres and 1200 account for no small amount in their sonic differences. Also, as explained several times before, the tonearm fluid damper transforms the 1200 into a whole different beast. I bet you're not using any $25 interconnect between your Teres and phono stage. I haven't forgotten about your speaker wires--haven't ordered any yet...
See what did we tell you Dennis. Glad you made a choice you are happy with. (but the creature is a good sounding table)
What arm and Cartridge did you end up with.
I forgot what phono section are you using?
Someday, maybe a Teres and a CEC belt driven transport--but I need either a house near the lake or a small farm first. Priorities, priorities...
Dennis has upgrade fever, regardless.
Now we have it straight,consider this thread closed.,end of line.....................................................................................................................
Maybe an EMT rim drive TT...maybe. Kevin told me this week of a customer of his that "upgraded" to a Rega P-25 and had to go back to the creature. Oh well...
rock... twl helped me throughout the process, from recommending an arm/cartridge combination (expressimo rega with a denon 103R), to setup. i'm using a supratek phono stage. this combo really is amazing. i'm pinned to my listening seat when playing vinyl.