TEAC UD-701 vs NT-505 vs ?

@bosssound Your thoughts on the Bartok mirror mine. I have listened to it both with high end speaker and headphone setups, and both times I felt the Bartok sounded dull and a little muddled. With the speaker setup, it was hooked to a D'agostino preamp running into Luxman M900u into Wilson Sabrina. Headphone amp was a Woo Audio 33 and I forget the model of the headphones, but it was a high end one. 

Hi bhvf,

Glad you are enjoying it  - 6 months with mine  The pre amp is analogue, although I have not tried it. Fixed volume out via XLR to a Luxman integrated  I have added the cg10 M clock which, despite advice to the contrary, lifts the bar a little higher to my ears. Happy listening  

I've been playing it and using it as a balanced preamp with a new to me Audio Research VT-130SE and it sounds fantastic, a little more open than the 505. I will switch back to my Sugden next week and do some comparisons as I'm much more familiar with that amp. Build quality is fantastic. This thing is heavy also. I love that it has inputs so I can use vinyl. I don't know if it converts everything to digital and back. That would obviously be a problem for vinyl lovers. I haven't tried it yet. That's next week also when I have some more time.

@bhvf , eager to hear about your experience.

Music Direct just got UD-701’s back in stock. Price is up $300 to $4300. I ordered one yesterday and will report back. I just found a beautiful Audio Research VT-130SE so I have something to try the preamp section out with. I’ve found the 505 preamp section great in my system.

Anyone else, testing the NT-505 headphone output?

Yeah my Wadia 321 is a DAC with volume control.  It aint no pre-amp like the BR 20.  The BR also , as of this month, is A Roon ready endpoint as well as having its on streaming Web interface with Manic Moose. 

I think the Bryston is a preamplifier with a DAC, while the Teac is a DAC that can act as a preamplifier. In my books, 2 different types of products, depending on how you view a component's usage.

Since BR-20 is mash of BDA-3 DAC and BDP-3 streamer that provides very nice set-up for testing whether separate DAC and streamer are superior to integrated unit.

Maybe an Audiogon member somewhere has conducted that test and will chime in...

Thanks for pointer to this new Bryston unit. A swiss-army-knife of a DAC, like the Teac UD-701N. In roughly similar price point. Curious to read reviews from parties with greater disinterest and from users.

BR-20 thread here.  Also back up a level for the general Bryston threads

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172721.0

I only have experience with a couple of their products BDP Pi & BOT-1.  Their support is good.  Similar rep as say..PS Audio.   They even support discontinued products if they can , like my BDP Pi.   Their amplifier warranty is like 20 years.  Not sure if that would apply to a Pre.  If I had the  $  I would collapse my DAC,  Pre and streamer into that unit, so sanitary.   Kitchen remodel has me watching all the cool new sh!t from the sideline.

Thanks for pointer to this new Bryston unit. A swiss-army-knife of a DAC, like the Teac UD-701N. In roughly similar price point. Curious to read reviews from parties with greater disinterest and from users.

Sorry for spelling error - it should be Audiotailor Jade.

Source and setup for my testing

Qobuz digital - through NT-505 - from the NT direct (headphone output) - compared to the Jade headphone output.

The Jade is connected from Teac, first to the preamp with balanced cable and then, single ended cable, from the preamp line out, to the Jade.

Headphone standard connection is used (not balanced).

My experience after a year’s use is similar to big_greg’s: the NT-505 with AKM chip is a bit on the warm and polite side.

But more neutral and less polite, more lively, after extended break-in.

Glassy and hard? Well yes, sometimes, I hear some of that in digital recordings generally, but not so much, here. I suspect that, even if the UD-701 sounds better, there would still be a considerable gap up to the analog sound quality, in my system. Maybe I have old-fashioned "tube and vinyl" ears.

What I know, is that the 505 has been a good, trouble-free investment, so far. I have not yet tested the 505 as a preamp, connected direct to my Atma-sphere MA-1 amps, but I know that it works fine, connected to my Einstein The Tube preamp, and also, the Io Eclipse with volume controls (through the Aux input), used as a preamp. I think this translates to "worthiness" - these preamps are very well able to uncover sound problems.

I have not yet had the time to test the headphone output with my favorite phones (Audioquest Nightowl + Nighthawk). Thats actually my one gripe with the 505 - I thought it had balanced headphone output, but no. My mistake. I should have read the small print.

Yes. That beautiful album was in heavy rotation in my home at one point. Spiritual. Transcendent.

Agree. The Korean Rose 150 switched to ESS for Europe as did TEAC for the NT505X. Think Cary in the USA secured enough AKM4499 chips to maintain production. 
 

Thank you bosssound for your detailed write-up. I have no experience of any other competitor so my own appraisal is subjective. Glad that it is meeting expectations even with one channel operating. My “ revelation” comment was due to its capabilities to deliver an exceptionally wide and detailed soundstage without any fatigue. Last night I listened to Keith Jarrett’s live Koln concert from 1974 on Qobuz 24/96. It was the very first CD that I bought or heard, (in Wichita,ka) when my colleague bought a Sony player back in 1983. I have enjoyed that cd hundreds of times over the years, but the TEAC reveals more ambience from the hall, creaks and a cough, plus a vibrancy to the music. I’m not capable of describing piano notes accurately, but was in no doubt that this was a more enjoyable listen than my old cd. Look forward to your thoughts when secure a fully functioning unit.

@bosssound , you are on a roll! I am seeing all the DACs that I am kind of shortlisting. It took me more than 2 years to finalize my speakers. And I am expecting the same for DAC. But based on your notes it looks like the TEAC UD-701N would be top of the list. Thank You for the excellent write-up. I like it how you kept it confined to 1 channel between the Teac and Rose to make it fair.

BTW the Rose RS150s available in the US use ESS DACs, unless your dealer had an older unit. The units sold in the US are all 150B after the company could not get anymore AKM DACs.

My plan for now is to purchase a UD-701 when I can get a hold of a unit on acceptable terms. Will report back after two-channel listening, which @nomorelandings promises will be revelatory. Given current supply chain problems, who knows when that will be...

I preferred the UD-701 sound over that produced by the RS-150. Given that sound of RS-150 was very similar to NT-505, advantages of UD-701 over RS-150 were very similar to its advantages over NT-505 (see post on 3-19-22 at 5:38 pm in this thread). UD-701, relative to RS-150, was more natural, engaging, and conveyed emotion in music better. Note UD-701 is $4K vs. $5K for RS-150. Discernment of advantages required careful listening but once heard were distinct.

Note my impressions regarding UD-701 at dealer confirmed what I heard at home.

The second listening session at my dealer put the winner from my in-home shoot-out, the TEAC UD-701-N, up against the winner from the first session at my dealer, the HiFi Rose RS150.

A Bluesound node functioned as the streamer. Audioquest Earth ICs were used to connect both the UD-701 and RS150 to the pre-amp. Settings on the UD-701 were the same as for my home listening tests except for selection of variable line out volume. Volume level adjusting was necessary, since at the 0db line out setting on the UD-701 the signal sent to the pre-amp was stronger than that for the RS150. Listening was done with only the right channel active for both units since left channel on the UD-701 was dead. Other components of the set-up were the same as for the first listening session. Hence, this shoot-out was head-to-head, apples-to-apples.

Okay. The results from this listening session were weird. Perhaps they reflect bad taste on my part, a problem with my ears, or a problem with the set-up. (However, in my experience the folks at HiFi Buys know what they are doing.) Hence, I will use terms like and dislike as opposed to better or worse.

I did not like the sound of the Bartok. The soundstage and sounds were large but the individual sounds were diffuse, as opposed to precise and intense. The sound was also somewhat dull and grey to my ears.

I did not like sound of the Hugo. Although notes were precise, the music just sounded wrong and lacked some life. Digital. I had the impression the end of notes were being cut off. (Sustain and decay is supposed to be a strength of the Hugo, so this was also strange.)

I liked the sound of the Rose RS150. Notes were defined. Sound was colorful and live. Engaging. A negative feature was that the translation of the bass notes in Beyonce's Partition. Just sounded weird/wrong.

To circle back to my comments at top, my impressions here are strange. At odds with the glowing reviews of the Bartok and Hugo by many both pro and user reviews and hence my own expectations.

In my defense, when David White of HiFi Buys played a record on the $12K turntable that is part of the set-up in that listening room I could immediately hear what analog fans cherish- big soundstage with big notes with both precision and intensity. Emotive, engaging sound. (I had not listened to a record since I was a kid listening to my father's Bang & Olufson straight arm, lateral tracking turntable so this experience was a revelation.)

There is also some consistency in my preferences. The RS150 employs an AKM DAC, as does the TEAC NT-505. The two units sounded very similar, which speaks well for the NT-505 since it is less than half of the cost of RS150 (<$2K vs $5K).

Onto to notes from DAC shootout at my dealer, HiFi Buys in ATL.

First session compared dCS Bartok to Chord Hugo to HiFi Rose RS150.

Setup:

Not sure about how streaming was set-up. Selected music using Roon. I used same set of tracks to test DACs as I did at home.

Believe that pre-amp was D'agostino Momentum. Amp was Parasound JC5. Speakers were Vandersteen Kentos. ICs and power cords were higher end Audioquest products.

Thanks, big-Greg. Saved me some $. 

I have no idea regarding the merits of adding a clock and suspect small gain vs $$$ , but might be wrong. Any thoughts?

I bought the CG-10M clock for one of my NT-505s and consider it the biggest waste of money I've made in the hobby.  There might be a little more something that it adds, but whatever it is, it's barely, if at all detectable to my ears.

The NT-505 at times sounded bright and at moments glassy.

I have to wonder if that's not a system or room issue.  Looking at your system, it doesn't seem it would be due to your system components, but there appear to be a lot of hard surfaces in the room.  I have two NT-505s and have used them in 3 different systems and found them to be more on the warm side, certainly in comparison to my current DAC - an Aqua La Voce S3.

Thanks for listening reports, and discussion! I will probably stick around with my NT-505 for a while, before an eventual upgrade. I still need to "get to know it" better, even after a year of use. This is so also because I mainly play music from LPs. As I stated above, there is still a considerable gap, in my system/to my ears, between the superior analog sound, and the not-bad-to-quite good digital sound. Some have found the 505 bright and glassy. In my setup, compared to the Lyra Atlas cartridge, it is not very bright, nor very glassy, but it is clear that the treble air and resolution is greater with the Atlas, and thereby, the "thereness" of the music. I find it somewhat surprising that the AKM chip should sound "glassy", but I will check it more, myself.

I agree with many other observations: yes, standard cd format through Qobuz etc often sounds surprisingly good on the 505. The hi res takes are maybe not so much of an improvement as one should expect (I get varying results),

DSD sounds best to my ears also, and for DSD, the best formula seems to be to keep as close to 'native DSD' as possible. So I have not experimented much with filters.

Agree. “What’s it doing now” is beyond my limited technical knowledge, but my understanding is that post FGPA up sampling- I use 8X- it is converted to DSD which then only requires a low pass filter on the journey to the op amps. As per my original post, the SQ of CD input via Coax has brought new life to my CD collection. I have bought a few MQA CDs from Amazon and the screen says they unfold to 24/352.KHz the same as 8 X redbook 44-1. MQA is not subjected to the FGPA upsampling. The other coax receives output from a Node, which I bought specifically for Radio Paradise’s MQA stream. The 701 unfolds this raw MQA stream to 24/44-1 and then converts it to DSD as above. The end product is an outstanding SQ for internet Radio to my ears which comfortably beats the already good RP FLAC/ALAC stream that I previously enjoyed on the NT505.
A true digital hub that delivers on whatever you throw at it. NB. Not sure that Spotify is FLAC as yet. Long overdue. I will have to ask my son-in-law about algorithms in the FGPA as alien to me as trading derivatives!

Shenzhen has closed its factories due covid. Supplies are going to get even worse imho. When I first flew to Hong Kong in the 1970s, it was a fishing town over the border. Now 25million plus beavering away at high tech products. 

@milpai 

I don't think upsampling to DSD from FLAC is possible. But this is at edge or beyond of my technical sophistication. On page 15 of manual, chart shows 44.1 kHz (FLAC) can be upsampled 8x max to 352.8 kHz.  Delta-Sigma DA modulator sampling freq appears to be set independently of this with options of 128, 256, and 512 (page 25). Conversion of PCM to DSD appears possible by selecting appropriate setting.

Yes. I plan to get another 701. But who knows when that will be given supply disruptions present. Moon Audio has stock. But like bhvf I am not crazy about their terms.

@bosssound ,

Thank you the update. I read it with great interest.

Bummer that only 1 channel worked. But good to know that even with that you preferred the 701 compared to the 505. The Teac 701 is now high on my list, since it also has streaming capability. Question about the upsampling - does it mean that if you send FLAC to the 170, you would be able to upsample it to DSD?

Currently I have found a way to add Radio Paradise, Folk Alley and Spotify to Foobar 2000 and love the upsampled DSD sound. I am wondering if I would be able to do that via this DAC.

Do you plan to get another 701 which does not have any issues?

@mantis007 ,

What DAC do you have in the primary system? Did you compare the 701 with the DAC in the primary system?

I must agree.....you have had some really neat systems in the past.

Thanks mantis007. Will have to wait for my son-in-law to visit - he is a software expert for a Swiss bank and has a windows device. I haven’t tried the preamp into my Luxman, but good to know. I am in the process of selling my nt505 and have also been offered a good trade in against the cg-10m clock. I have no idea regarding the merits of adding a clock and suspect small gain vs $$$ , but might be wrong. Any thoughts?

@bosssound thanks for that. All that stuff is long gone - some I wish I still had but… 🙂 There have been at least a dozen more systems since then at 2 different homes.

I moved on from the PS about 4 years ago and have been through several dacs since then. I did enjoy the PS when I had it. I think the 701 is much more advanced in its steaming capability vs the bridge. I haven't kept track but I imagine the DS is pretty much done as far as PS is concerned. I use the 701 in my second system and think it is several levels above the NT505 I had for a while in that system. Teac did a nice job. The preamp section is very nice too. I have an Esoteric F-07 amp that can be used as amp only (pre bypass) and using the 701 as preamp was very good. Not a huge difference in using the 07 as an integrated. I also should say I think the the 701 USB is slightly better to my ears vs the network input. Just slightly.

@mantis007 

You own/have owned some awesome systems.

Curious if you have had a chance to compare 701 to PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. That's one I wanted to A/B 701 against but did not pursue in end because of dissatisfaction I see some owners express about Bridge and particularly its corresponding streaming app, along with low probability of PS Audio investing in improving Bridge/app because PS Audio is planning to come out with a new streamer per user posts.

@nomorelandings I believe you need a Windows base machine to do it at this time.

Hi bosssound. Great write up and in line with my own experience. Both channels working on the 701 will be a revelation! Thanks for keeping us updated. So often on UK forums, advice is sought then silence. I agree, the output from my Node130 has been beyond expectation. Better still when output to the TEAC. 

Hi Mantis,

any idea how you update the system firmware as I do not have any Microsoft based computer, only Mac? Net firmware updates fine in the HR app. Thanks. 

fyi: new firmware was released a few days ago - it includes channel balance which is a nice addition.

Thanks for the update! I've bought an amp from Safe and Sound before and had no issues. I don't think they would do anything nefarious at all. A distributor/manufacturer who often comments on these forums has good things to say about them also. 

Now I really want to find a UD-701 to try. Moon Audio has them but with a restocking fee of $400 (10%). That's a little higher than I'm willing to pay to try it so I'll probably wait for a local dealer or Music Direct to hear one. 

Please keep the thread updated when you get the 701 back with both channels working.

PPPPS

I promised to comment on the 701 build.

It's an absolutely beautiful unit. I ordered one in black. Thick black aluminum (?) plate on front with beautiful grain. Knobs and switches that feel great to the touch and respond well to your actions. Low profile fins with individual variation in length on side to reduce resonant vibration. Solid. Heavy. A 26 pound DAC!

That weight is not surprising given contents the chassis bears. I won't go into detail here since that's easily available from the TEAC and other websites: four power transformers/coils, dual mono design...

PPPPPS

Other matters call... I will post a breakdown of the listening tests at my dealer most likely tomorrow.

PS

The 505 had AKM chips. It was NOT the NT-505-X with Sabre chips.

PPS

Additional notes regarding set-up.

Streaming was via Quboz. Most but not all tracks were Hi-res.

Settings on 505 are thanks to tips from @nomorelandings and @bhvf :

fixed volume (line out) 4x (Upconversion), short delay slow (PCM filter), wide (DSD filter)

I felt that these upconversion and PCM filter settings produced a more natural sound than what I posted previously and 8x upconversion with slow roll off PCM filter. However, differences here are subtle and very likely to vary with listener.

Settings on 701 are thanks to @nomorelandings with modest modifications based on my listening:

8x Fs (Upconversion), fixed volume (line out), 512x (Delta-Sigma Fs), DSD 1 bit (PCM Delta Sigma), Fil 1 (DSD Low Pass Filter Fs).

I felt that DSD 1 bit produced a more natural sound (more weight, higher contrast edges) than the DSD multibit setting. The multibit setting in its defense had more air. Again differences were subtle and likely to differ with listener.

PPPS

Second sentence of last paragraph of post @ 4:00 pm today should read: No suspicion that they sold me dud on purpose.

The TEAC UD-701-N was superior to the NT-505.

It had all the advantages of the NT-505 over the Vault but in larger amounts.

But none of the disadvantages. The NT-505 at times sounded bright and at moments glassy. For example, on Hamadoun Toure from Toumani & Sidiki Diabete the kora notes just don’t sound natural. The brightness moderated with time. I wondered whether I would find listening fatiguing in the long run. Note that I have not seen other users complain of this in their comments, which are overwhelmingly positive. (@o_holter indicated burn-in was important for the 505 so that may improve further with time.)

The 701 just sounded right. Engaging, natural, emotive. Timing, rhythm, flow of music just sound right- makes you move. Inviting to listen to even with only one channel. (That’s tough to do!) Musical notes with intensity and weight.

Hard to describe. Just that feeling of ahhhh... like a new experience that feels like coming home.

PS

This is a side note. But an observation that stands out. On Valsa de Uma Cidade from Samba in Seattle, Sete taps out a four count before the band starts playing. You can hear on this Vault and 505. Less distinctly on the Vault than 505, although on both it is less distinct than on 701, on which the taps have more weight and character. My guess (since I did not have the privilege of hearing the live performance) is that the 701 portrays the original timbre of those taps more accurately. Another observation from this track that stands out is Sete’s use of dynamics to convey emotion come across very clearly on the 701. There is some of that with the 505 but it’s there to a larger degree with the 701.

Home Listening Tests...

NT-505 had several advantages over Vault.

More detail. For example, on opening of Bruca Manigua by Buena Vista Social Club featuring Ibrahim Ferrer, the backup horns sound more like individual horns playing together on the 505 than Vault. Same for back-up singers later on in track.

In addition, the layering of instruments and soundstage depth was better on the 505 than Vault.

Portrayal of Ferrer’s voice was somewhat diffuse and I would say veiled or uncontrolled (?) with Vault. With 505, portrayal was more veridical to my ears; it was more precise and intense.

Bass was both more articulate and powerful with 505 than Vault. This was apparent with heavy bass lines on Chic’s Le Freak (Oliver Heldon mix) and Beyonce’s Partition. Also with acoustic bass on Le Herida Oscura from Susana Baca’s new album Palabras Urgentes.

These advantages IMHO were more pronounced on tracks in lower resolutions formats (non-HR vs HR on Quboz). Case in point is Viento del Olvido from Baca’s Travesias. I can’t speak to the technical details but believe that NT-505 has more options for rendering these "low" resolution recordings in high fidelity than Vault.

All that said the listening test made me appreciate how well the Vault renders music and explained why I was very happy with my system as is. Sound is engaging and evokes emotion. The edges of notes of communicated appealingly, For example, edges of guitar notes and other plucked instruments are sharp, appealing and natural (e.g., any track from Samba in Seattle by Bola Sete or Baaba Maal’s Yoolelle - Maman from Missing You.)

I discuss some of the shortcomings of the NT-505 in my next post where I compare it to the UD-701.

First will report on listening tests at home. My system is described in my profile. Set-up for tests is described below.

Could not perform direct comparison of 701 to other units (new TEAC NT-505, old Vault 2) because my Audioquest Victoria RCA IC runs as a unitary cable with split into right and light connectors only near its two ends. Therefore, could not connect 701 to RCA IC because the L and R analog outputs on its back are far apart (as a consequence of its dual mono design). Hence, while 505 and Vault were connected to my Parasound JC2 pre-amp via RCA; 701 was connected via AQ Yukon XLR IC, which IMHO are inferior to Victoria and AQ Earth. I also did some listening with NT-505 connected directly to my Parasound A21 amp via Earth XLR IC. I used stock power cables with both the TEAC units. Connection to Internet in all cases was via Wireworld Starlight 8 cable to Ethernet port.

Qualification regarding report is the left channel of the UD-701-N was dead, so I could only do one channel listening with it.

I have not heard of any similar or other manufacturing problems with this model or other TEAC products so I don't take this as a ding against the 701. (See my comments later about its excellent build.)

I also have no beef with Safe & Sound from whom I bought this unit. No suspicion that they sold me dud. In fact, they have been excellent about handling the issue and have promised full refund and paid for shipping back. I am happy to do business with them again.

Can report back now. Sort of.

First, want to thank all for a thoughtful, informative, and helpful thread.

There were a couple points that where the thread could have turned to mudslinging and I want to thank both parties for turning away from that and staying civil.

I can only chime in, one year listening to the NT-505, streaming Qobuz. Have not heard the newer models. What is clear, is that the 505 needs break-in time. It does not outperform my vinyl rig, but now sounds very good. This is into a tube system - Einstein The tube mk2 preamp, and Atma-sphere Ma-1 amps. It seems a supportive environment for the 505. The best digital recordings - also standard cd format - now sound clearly better than I'v heard before.  

Hi Milpai,

agree re: vibration etc. didn’t want to make subjective claims and distract from the thread.

Thanks for that review. Although limited to its performance paired with the class D power amp, a fair conclusion. At least they used some high end Borreson speakers. A direct and detailed A/B comparison with the NT 505 might have helped bosssound. My first experience of delta sigma and have not heard R2R etc, but can safely say that the 701 is all the streamer/ DAC that I will ever need, as are my amp  and speakers. More expensive PS audio, Esoteric and dCS delta/ sigma DACs must be very good indeed. 

Another detailed review.German Review

plus xlr and vibration mitigation. Whether any of these are beneficial is unknown, but do no harm other than to the wallet.

At least my experience, in MY system, has been that vibration mitigation makes a lot of difference, especially in controlling image smearing and achieving tight bass.

@bosssound , is the UD-701N expected soon? I would like to know your take on the difference between the AKM/ESS based 505. A proprietary Delta Sigma implementation OR FPGA DAC OR a Maranzt style proprietary implementation interests me more than R2R or chip based DAC. But you never know unless you hear one in person. I am not sure if I can make it to AXPONA this year.