Wolf, that was the most humorless post I've ever seen from you.
:-)
:-)
Synergistic Red Fuse ...
I installed a SR RED Quantum fuse in my ARC REF-3 preamp a few days ago, replacing an older high end fuse. Uhh ... for a hundred bucks, this little baby is well worth the cost. There was an immediate improvement upon installation, but now that its broken in (yes, no kidding), its quite remarkable. A tightening of the focus, a more solid image, and most important of all for my tastes, a deeper appreciation for the organic sound of the instruments. Damn! ... cellos sound great! Much improved attack on pianos. More humanistic on vocals. Bowed bass goes down forever. Next move? .... I'm doing the entire system with these fuses. One at a time though just to gauge the improvement in each piece of equipment. The REF-75se comes next. I'll report the results as the progression takes place. Stay tuned ...
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
Showing 50 responses by nonoise
I don't know how this fits in other than to say that soon after I got my Marantz Reference components (after break in), I swapped out the stock fuses for HiFi Tuning fuses and after break in, the sound did improve. It was not on the level of going to Darwin ICs or Zu Audio SCs but there did seem to be a more resolving nature but as I said, not on the level of the cable swaps. It got me closer to a cleaner event and in the end, it's all I ask for in this hobby. I don't want anything that leads to a sideways change, just a cleaner and clearer one. Everything is system dependent as I had to remove some Herbies footers from under my speakers for a tighter and more focused sound, return a SteinMusic speaker match for doing really nothing, remove some Mad Scientist black discs from my amp's speaker output posts for the same reason, and a few others that don't come readily to mind. Heck, even power cords made a bigger difference than the fuses. I know I"m limiting myself to what I've experienced but I'm really quite satisfied with what progress I've made and don't begrudge anyone who claims to have better results. Hats off to anyone who's happy and it'd be nice to see less of a polarized nature to all of this. All the best, Nonoise |
This might be a timely article I came across over at High Fidelity. In it, the author points out that all common fuses are welded with nickel elements and that is a bottleneck, or sorts, to good sound. Also, there is a vibrating element that needs to be addressed with the wire in the fuse as current is passed through it. Maybe he’s onto something. All the best, Nonoise |
Not to be repetitive but some reasons why the fuse is actually critical include but are not limited to it’s exposed to RFI, it’s exposed to vibration, it’s exposed to magnetic fields, it’s a conductor, thus purer and/or better metal conductors and end caps are audible. For starters I would specify 5 nines silver or 7 nines copper for the fuse wire, end caps and the fuse holder. It's not rocket science, folks.Bingo. From my own personal experience, it took a couple of days for the new fuses to break in while playing 24/7, just like any new cable or component. Now before anyone counters with how can something so small need to be broken in, think about all the discussion about capacitors, connectors, cables and the like needing some time to break in. This is generally agreed upon. The act of removing and inserting terminations which removes motes of oxidation has been made to discount just what actually is responsible, as has extremely small matters as turn on and warm up time needing to be exactly the same, time of day, weather conditions, seating position, frame of mind, etc and yet some other thing as small as a fuse is to be discounted? Gentlemen, you are arguing against yourselves. All the best, Nonoise |
Kingfi, before you consider buying you should check out this article on Two Buck Chuck. I've always been told one of the urban myths about it but it turns out to be something else entirely. All the best, Nonoise |
I don't get it. Either try the fuses yourself or be quiet. One needn't spend a fortune on them to find out. Right now you can get your butts over to ebay and get some PADIS fuses (German made, silver or rhodium end caps, silver wire, ceramic fuses) for about $25 apiece. They're OEM for Furutech at about half the cost, if not more. It would be an easy and cheap way to find out if there is anything to these fuses and if convinced, you can splurge on the more expensive SR fuses and see if the improvement justifies the extra costs. The PADIS have received very positive reviews as well and considering no one here probably works and shills for them, one can trust the feedback, be it good or bad. No biggie. All the best, Nonoise |
Geoff, you're right. My bad. If anyone, I should know this as I used to work in a capacitor factory (my first job) and was knocked out by a 1,000 volt discharge. Upon awakening, I was told, "It's the amps that'll kill ya." I guess I suppressed that memory because everyone was laughing when I awoke. But there is some spin going on. :-) All the best, Nonoise |
Wolf, I agree that a lot of this is hype. Lightning strikes can have as much as 1,000,000 volts so twice that for a fuse is just what it sounds like, hype. Everything would melt no matter how it was applied. But it doesn’t negate the positive results. It’s just marketing. Popularity and demand will extract a price as well. I detest the term "supply and demand" due to misuse but here, it applies. From my own experience, the now superseded HiFi Tuning fuses that I use really work. I’m on the fence about getting some PADIS fuses but for $25 a pop, I could live with it since when compared to the current run of HiFi fuses and others, they came out as more neutral and extended. Heck, I spend more on wine tasting so all I have to do is stay home one night and get the five fuses needed to do the deed. I’d also raise some eyebrows here for buying a Todd Begg Mini Bodega but I like it enough to justify the cost. Now, there is something that can be debated as any good knife will do, but in the end, it’s what "I" like. All the best, Nonoise |
I've only used HiFi Tuning fuses but the results were the same as yours: kind of awful sounding until they broke in. Mine took about 4 days to completely break in, playing 24/7, much like a cable, and I've never thought twice about it since. A definite improvement. Your patience will be rewarded. All the best, Nonoise |
Frank, Your story about your time at the SR demo in Newport and that guy's sneering reaction reminds me of an old "friend" I used to hang around with back in the day. I have more than a sneaking suspicion that that sneering guy heard the difference but thought it wasn't enough to justify the cost, just like my friend. He had this cognitive dissonance about hifi and it's costs and the better my systems got, the more angry and distant he became. Some people are just weird that way. Or the guy you spoke to had tin ears. All the best, Nonoise |
So if every amp maker, regardless of type, were to make their amps to some same exacting spec, to the point where a fuse or cable wouldn't make a lick of difference, then all amps would sound the same. Wouldn't they? If so, then we could all go to Best Buy to buy our gear and it would be even easier since there would be no need to have more than one make or brand. Welcome, comrades, to the new order. Now we can do away with sites like this since there'd be no need for discussion. Just a music section where we could all argue about music, unless it can be determined that all music, properly written and scored, sounds alike and then we can all have just one song to listen to. Simplicity at it's best. No need for satire either, since there wouldn't be any mistakes being made, no advances or trials to further anything that needs to be derided and pooh-poohed. Life without choices or diversity. Can't wait. All the best, Nonoise |
Some things are taken for granted. It's always been there so why investigate it? It's always worked so why improve upon it? It's not appreciated since it might lessen my contribution. Using that logic, we could have all stopped improving things eons ago. Another consideration that's overlooked is if there'd been serious R&D into something considered so insignificant that there's no real standardization of it's implementation, and advances made beyond "good enough" were achieved, other components downstream needn't have had such development to overcome the problems that came along from that something, considered so insignificant..... All the best, Nonoise |
Wolf, I found this on another thread and it may (or may not) answer your question: auxinput 309 posts 11-17-2016 12:31pm The idea that fuses and power supply components are not part of the signal chain is not entirely correct. Anything coming in from the A/C, power cables, fuses, rectifiers, regulators, or power supplies can all become part of the output signal. An operational amplifier circuit (whether discrete or monolithic op amp) will only pass through the actual signal if the signal is coming in on the inverting input of the op amp AND the negative feedback gain is unity gain (0 gain) or less than unity gain (i.e. it’s forcing op amp to de-amplify the signal). In this case, the waveform signal will actually route itself around the op amp using the negative feedback line as a pathway. That being said, even with unity gain, the type of op amp or power supply elements will still influence the character or sonic signature of the audio. If the negative feedback circuit is set to create a "gain" (or amplify), it increases the voltage of the waveform by using voltage from the positive/negative rails from the power supply (i.e. +/-15V). This additional voltage is sent through the output pin of the op amp. It this case, the fuse, power cord, A/C elements will contribute to the character of the waveform (in the sense of affecting how the op amp slews in relating to the input waveform, how far/fast it slews, character of the DC noise, etc.). In a power amp circuit, the output transistors have to create massive gain (turning a 1V input into something like 15-100 watts or more). It has to use the A/C power coming in to create this voltage, so your signal is actually something like 98% A/C voltage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYHt5XviKc I’ve posted that link before, but it’s an excellent lecture on how op amps actually work. It may explain why some hear improvements and some do not. It's all over my head but it shows causality of sorts. All the best, Nonoise |
Fuses should not degrade, they should blow when required. Some here have gone so far (overboard) as to state that if your gear can be affected by a change in fuses, cords, etc. then there's something wrong with your gear: it's crap. Saying that, then a fuse that degrades is crap as well. Why would anyone put a crappy fuse in such a vital area, knowing it's going to fail long before (if ever) required? It would also affect performance long before it ever blows. Some counter arguments simply don't make sense. Not even on first blush. These boutique fuses seem to address the failings of cheap fuses by a more robust construction with attention paid to the rigors a fuse goes through when doing it's job, simple as it's been made to believe. The only argument I see is how much of your hard earned cash are you ready to part with for the improvement. I've wasted more money on CD's that I ended up not liking than what would be needed to buy some SR Black fuses. I know the improvements made in my system with some old HiFi Tuning Silver fuses but I'm still on the fence as to amount of improvement I'd get with SR Blacks for the price they charge. That's my only concern since I know fuses matter. If metallurgy is important in cable terminations, let alone wiring, then why not fuses? I just got so big an improvement with my speaker cables going from copper spades to rhodium over beryllium bananas on the amp end that it leaves my head wagging in disbelief. Again, why not fuses? Some of these counter arguments are becoming zombie like in their ability to be knocked down, only to come back again and again. There should be a spin off on TV called The Aurally Dead. All the best, Nonoise |
Hmm, if a fuse is made to be a sacrificial component, as proffered by georgehifi, then wouldn't it make sense to make one of higher quality? It wouldn't degrade as quickly, if ever. As for the ones that blew instantly, aren't those rather rare compared to the vast majority of fuses sold? And didn't someone, earlier on in this thread, say that not all amps turn on the same and the inrush of current is not the same from different makes? I seem to remember someone talking of a brand with different models that behaved differently. Fuses blew and fuses didn't simply dealing with different models of the same component. And didn't someone offer that going up just a bit in value seems to do the trick for the ones that easily blow without detriment? Some tubes fail soon after insertion for no apparent reason. Some other components do as well. Crappy fuses have been made for a long time so it's rather easy to assure the most basic performance needed during manufacture due to the lower standards involved. Pound them out. Almost uniform performance after purchase is a given and nothing to really brag about. Some failures are to be expected. So what? People have gotten their money back or the fuse replaced and viola! It works. All the best, Nonoise |
teo_audio, nice take on the sound of "ordinary" fuses and how they differ as well. I've linked to this site before where the reviewer mentioned the same thing along with his take on the boutique fuses. He says even the $2.00 fuses offer an improvement over the cheap ones. All the best, Nonoise |
Imagine, for a moment, some manufacturer going the resettable fuse route. They'd be a year ahead of the competition and have a better sounding product to boot (all things being equal). And, if smart, they'd never mention it and a year up on the competition could be extended. In the meantime, laurels will be laid and glowing reviews published, establishing a foothold, and all this on a building a better, and cheaper mousetrap. Or something like that. :-) All the best, Nonoise |
To all the naysayers. |
"I find amateur psychological analysis a welcome breath of fresh air." Do tell.... Also, some things, stated as fact in the public arena, are way overblown. The whole college campus brouhaha is just one example. How many times is it going to come up in a fuse discussion? Some doth protest too much. All the best, Nonoise |
Did this thread take a wrong turn? |
I posted 'auxinput's' contribution from another thread earlier about how the signal is about 98% A/C voltage and no one has shot that down yet. Glossed over maybe, but not disputed. Taking that into consideration (at the very least), doesn't it leave open the 'weak link' aspect of the fuse? Just to consider it doesn't mean you've fallen prey to some devious aspect of marketing. Granted, there's a lot of hype that's right up there with the Amazing Randy but THAT'S the marketing side of things. I can see where everyone's BS meters go off when they read the 'science' behind it but that's a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Like teo_audio points out: a solid copper bar will ruin you forever once you've heard what it can do and have to put that fuse back in. That tells me that a better made fuse should improve the sound. I could care less about the theories behind the marketing claims. I just know better made fuses work because I've heard them for myself. And yes, they shouldn't cost as much as they do. I can see an argument for that, and I'd support it, but not the efficacy of better made fuses. All the best, Nonoise |
The consensus on the use of alternative fuses in audio will never be reconciled here. What I'd like to know is if anyone has replaced the fuse in their TV and did the picture/image improve. If so, then all can be laid to rest and we can move on from here. Picture quality improvement can, at the very least, be seen, if not measured, by anyone. If the fuse in the TV serves no more nobler purpose than that of an amp (or source) and the picture quality improves, than it follows that there is an improvement in audio gear and it's just that we're not up to the ability to measure it yet. I know, from personal experience, that a power cord upgrade improved the picture on my Plasma by a noticeable margin. As skinny as TVs are getting, they'll always have a decent PC on them in my house, looks be damned. It's just too daunting for me to take apart my TV but if someone already did, and replaced the fuse inside for a better one, I'd like to know what the outcome was. I also know that if the TV picture improves the debate will turn to whether it's enough to warrant the cost of the fuse but that is an entirely different kettle of fish. All the best, Nonoise |
My uncle was a very successful deputy D.A. (98% conviction record) and his mentor, Vincent Bugliosi, advised him to always convict with circumstantial evidence since sometimes, that's all you have to work with. Connect the dots, so to speak. I believe it's been nicely put so as to relate to the court of science as well. We have our theories to hold us until they're disproved. What cannot be defined/verified by direct evidence can be confirmed by the empirical. All the best, Nonoise |
teo_audio, I like your references to "human clan nature". It reminded me of a similar but relevant quote that dealt with this phenomena in the political world, among others. With just a few changes, it can describe all manner of resistance to change: "My point is the following: Behavioral scientists from another planet would notice immediately the semiotic resemblance between animal submissive behavior on the one hand and human obeisance to religious and civil authority on the other.... And they would conclude, correctly, that in baseline social behavior, not just in anatomy, Homo sapiens has only recently diverged in evolution form nonhuman primate stock." ---E.O. Wilson, Consillience: The Unity of Knowledge. I'm sorry if I side-tracked this topic but "human clan nature" kind of sums it up. All the best, Nonoise |
Just checked out their site and noticed a claim that some products with no inrush protection tends to blow ceramic fuses and to try the cheaper product first. Could that account for some here experiencing blown fuses and having to go up a notch in rating? Anyway, at the price, it's worth a try for those in doubt. Also, one can contact any of the dealers listed and see what their take is on it. All the best, Nonoise |
Glad to have you back Frank. Your ears must be quite acute if you could hear the blood flowing from a faulty valve. No one here can now question your aural acuity! As for the donor of you new aortic valve, you're in great company since Arnold Schwarzenegger had the same model installed in his heart as well. Just don't do any action movies for a while. 😃😃 All the best, Nonoise |
Bernard Hermann had a big influence on me way back when and is responsible for my appreciation of modern day soundtracks. I like to call these pieces mini-classical in nature as they generally use an orchestra, or parts of, and the pieces are short but can be dynamic in nature. They can also be soft and beguiling, lulling one into reverie. Yes, those massed strings. Nowadays, it can be anyone from Thomas Newman to Bear McCreary to Trent Reznor and esoteric composers like Ryuichi Sakamoto, Alva Soto and Johann Johannsson. They all offer great escape and comfort. All the best, Nonoise |
A study done many years ago found out just how far behind most doctors are when it comes to current medical beliefs, thinking and procedures. Everything from nutrition to post operative therapy were about 10-20 years behind the curve. They discovered it takes about that amount of time for everyone to catch up. Now these folk have M.D. (me doctor!) next to their names but are they really up to speed on most matters? It isn't that big of a stretch to extrapolate that to any other field of endeavor. Heck, some smart folk would consider it a given. A degree signifies an achievement but how many further their studies and keep an open mind? All the best, Nonoise |