So, I have decided that I would like to step on over to tube amps. So far I have 2 different amps in mind
1. Genesis m60 monoblocks I have heard great things about these amps from personal friends, to a great review in 6moons, although I have not heard them in my system.
2. McIntosh MC275 v4 or v5 I have heard this amp at a mc dealer but not in my own system.
My speakers are currently paradigm studio 60 v3 91db 8ohm. They are the next thing to be upgraded after the amps.
So of those 2 choices, does anyone have any input of the 2?, or more amps to add to the list the fall into the same price point / performance level?
I have also entertained the idea of looking into SET amps with high efficiency speakers, but I don't want horns or some really funky looking speaker. I know some exist out there, I have just been finding it hard to find the information on it.
I have owned a pair of B&W DM5 speakers for about 25 years. I powered these with a Yamaha CR 1020 receiver amp. I loved those speakers. While not producing tons of bass, for the music I listen to (jazz, classical) they produced to me, a very balanced smooth sound. The Yamy amp died some time back and was not economic to repair. I bought a cheap Pioneer one and the demise in sound quality was huge - the bass in particular had no definition. I then bought a NAD 3020A amp which improved things but still not to the level of the Yamy. Recently, the DM 5's also died. I have replaced them with a pair of B&W CDM1SE's. These are very different to the DM5's. Extraordinary definition - particularly in the mids and highs - I am hearing things in favourite recordings that I never knew were there. The stereo imaging is also very good. They are however to me, not as balanced as the DM5's and overall not as pleasant to listen to. The bottom end seems "veiled" in some way - almost hidden behind a layer of highs and mids. I realise that these speakers are probably not geared for lots of bass - I'm not looking for that but I would love a bit more overall balance and tonality. I am wondering if they really need a better/different amp to perform at their best. As you can probably gather, I am not on a huge budget. I listen to a lot of music but generally prefer to put money into my music collection than the hardware. I think I have pretty good ears though and have been a semi pro musician for many years. I am considering a Chinese tube amp like a Yaqin 10LMC which for $500 would perhaps be a bigger step up than what I could achieve with a solid state amp in the same price range? I have basic electronic knowledge so could probably handle the extra work required with maintaining a tube amp. I would welcome any thoughts/opinions/advice.
Grant (Tvad), you still may be scaring the OP from tubes (and we all know tubes rule).
From what he currently owns, and all that is on his list, he sounds like he is in the push-pull tube land. There really are very few speakers that some tube amp cannot drive.
For example, my speakers are rated at 89 db sensitivity, with a nominal load of 8 ohms, minimal load of 4 ohms. My room is 25X 15X 9. I find that a 80 wpc tube amp has PLENTY of power to drive these speakers in my room.
60-75 wpc should be plenty of power to drive his current speakers, and probably all of the speakers on his list, IMHO.
I still want to remind all of you not to lose sight of the fact that the original poster, Mr. Tmesselt, is new to tubes and that your advice about "speakers first" though well intended and basically true, may cause problems for this individual, whose main interest right now is an entry-level TUBE experience. Not a speaker-shopping spree ;-)
What if he were to fall in love with some speakers that had special (not to say fussy) amp requirements, or were poor candidates for tube amplification in the first place? To avoid his selecting speakers that might not even work with a modest, user-friendly tube amp, or winding up with speakers requiring a tube amp that might be expensive, high maintenance, or not practical with a wide variety of speakers (i.e. not easy to resell) I remain convinced his first experience with tubes requires a more conservative approach.
Gaining basic general experience first, with a modest, predictable and trouble-free setup, insures better, more informed choices in the future. Even if the man has unlimited funds, if you want to advise him responsibly, make sure they will be well spent by providing him with a solid experience for making future purchases.
With all due respect to Tvad, I think the reverse approach is best for those people who have already gained some basic understanding about tube audio and have already defined/refined their personal sonic preferences.
For the most part I agree with you. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, as I do know folks who have fell in love with the sound of a specific amplifier, and proceed to find speakers that best suit the amp. Granted, most do it the other way around, but as in all things audio, there are always exceptions to every rule......no?
To the OP, what source and preamp?,very important,if you are interested in say a Mac 275, what preamp and source will bedriving it ?, I have like 5 systems in my house, one of which is around a small pair of B&W cm2, a whopping $900/pair of book shelf speakers, I can dramatically change the sound with the electronics I have, I mean DRAMATICALLY,which shows me the speaker is at the mercy of what you feed it.
If someone is basically starting from scratch,they need to look ath the whole system as just that....a system, not just pick speakers and go from there.
I don't know that I necessarily buy all of this 'you must pick the speaker first' talk. I know many who choose the speaker around the amplifier....SET fans for instance. They choose to enjoy the SET sound, then go out and find speakers that cater to the flea-powered amps.
In a system, one does rely upon the other, amp and speakers, however, which one is the priority is up to the system coordinator.
First... lots of great advice here that is backed up with meaningful reasoning and experiences .
But , my experience has shown me that the amp can affect how a particular speaker will sound especially if it is a neutral and revealing speaker .
Case in point , the particular speaker that I am now using sounded just wonderful with a tubed intergrated amp . And just terrible with a SS amp driven by a tubed pre . A different speaker was ok through the tubed pre/SS amp and really dark and muddy through the tubed int. ! A third brand of speaker barely showed any difference at all between the two different amp setups . These auditions were done in the same location with the same cables , source and music .
That day showed me the importance of system synergy . Shop for your speakers first if you want but please pay attention to what is driving them !
Yeah, we've all been in your shoes. Just enough money for one upgrade, but needing (well, wanting really!), to do two upgrades.
One thing I have done is to do the optimal upgrade first, and do it properly, and then do a "place-keeper" upgrade quickly thereafter. As an example, about 5 or 6 years ago, I wanted to upgrade my speakers first, and then my amplifier second. I finally settled upon the Revel Studio speakers, but I knew that my amplifer was not quite up to the task of driving the Studios, as it was not quite powerful enough. (At the time, I had a Mark Levinson No. 27 stereo amp, that was only a 100 wpc amp.) So what I did was buy the Studios, and live with the somewhat inferior sound for a couple of months, while I sold the Levinson No. 27 amp (for $1,500). As soon as I sold it, I quickly bought a "place-keeper" amp, a used Levinson No. 23, (for $2,000), which had 200 wpc, which was the proper power for those speakers.
FYI, what I mean by a "place-keeper" amp, is one that is of sufficient quality, (and more importantly "power", in this case 200 wpc), that it will work for the time being, but as soon as finances permit, will be upgraded to something more fitting the speakers you've chosen. Typically, using a vintage amp works best as they can be bought, and more importantly sold, for nearly the same price, so that you don't lose a significant amount of money, as you know you'll be upgrading it within the next year or so. Ultimately, I sold the Levinson No. 23, (for $1,800, which was only a 10% hit for two years of use), and I ended up with the Lamm M2.1 monoblock amplifiers, which drove the Revel Studios to their ultimate best sound. And in fact, the Lamms were so good, that I kept them when I finally upgraded beyond the Studios to my current speakers, the Eggleston Works Andra II speakers.)
That is my two cents worth anyway. Good Luck in your search!
T, I relize you have now committed to the 'speaker first' process, which I highly indorse (like Tvad, I have wasted a lot of money trying speakers without paying enuf attention to proper amp matching, just using what I had on hand), but FWIW slowing down the process is a very good thing, because matching amps and speakers to get what YOU want to hear isn't a walk in the park.
Its easy to buy based on what you THINK you read in a review, but reviews can be a serious trap for the unwary, those who are unfamilar with the lingo, or the priorities assigned to the reviewer, and interpert them too literally. For example, I didn't think that 6moons review of the Genesis was all that much of a 'rave', in fact it convinced me that I didn't need to explore it further than the review, even though I was/am in the market for a high quality tube amp.
How can you pass-up the Genesis M60 Monoblocks if they are priced right?? Take them with you to audition speakers. If the dealer won't let you connect them to his demo speakers then eliminate that brand & model from the list. Dealers know the limitations of their products and won't willingly let you discover what those limitations are.
"Which can put to rest my temporary need for an upgrade!"
Without a plan this NEED (it 's not a need, it is a WANT) can cost you a lot of money. But it IS your money. Do what you want and what you feel is rigght. My idea when I upgrade is to first make sure I'm happy with my speakers. IF you are not, then you should deal with that first by finding a speaker you will want for awhile and then auditioning it in many settings. Only then will you know what amp to buy. Buying an amplifier because a friend has a bargain often is not a real bargin if it does not fit well with your future plans. Everything must coexist... Perhaps you should listen to your prospective amps with what you think might be your future speaker?
having a bad day or something? j/k I believe giving more insight to my current situation can help people better understand where I am coming from and where I am trying to get to. I am no audio expert which is why I am here, trying to learn all that I can. I do not think my follow up post explaining this was out of line, and if you did ..........
Nsgarch, thanks for all your input it has been very helpful. Looks like I got some speakers and amps to audition!
T - unless you're willing to do the necessary auditions and then take a calculated risk, you may become paralyzed with indecision. Here's a way forward, taking into account your current finances: You say you can acquire a new amp right now -- so buy one! Listen to all your short list candidates (in as many environments/stores as possible); even if you can't hear them all with identical gear/conditions, try to level the playing field a bit by choosing to hear the different amps with speakers of similar type and size and driver complement, if not the same make.
Whatever you decide, the amp you take home will be used with your current speakers -- a great way to understand what the new amp can do, since you're so familiar with the old speakers. This experience will prove invaluable when you begin shopping for new speakers. And in the meantime, you will have enjoyed the sound of tubes, albeit with your current speakers. It's fine to have a vision of a complete system in your head. But it's no reason to defer ALL gratification when it's possible to begin putting some pieces in place now (the calculated risk part ;-) There is no evidence that putting together an entire system all at once yields better results! Often it doesn't, and there you are, with no plan B, because you'd been holding this specific vision in your head. Anyway, that's been my experience FWIW ;-)
Well this may not be the right order to do things in, but my main motivation for getting the amp first is that the price I am selling my amps for and what I can buy what I want is within a few hundred dollars of each other. Which can put to rest my temporary need for an upgrade! On the other hand the sale of my current speakers to what I want is a couple grand, so that is on the back burner for the time being. Taking this into consideration would you still go with the speakers first? Or just try to create a game plan overall by choosing speakers and amp at the same time.
I philosophically agree with the three posts so far -- "find speakers you like first," etc. But these folks sound like they are "tube-experienced", and you are a toobie newbee; For that reason, my advice to someone like you, just "getting into it" would be a little different.
Above all, you want your first foray into tubes to be hassle-free. You don't want to have to spend time (at this stage I mean) messing with equipment that won't behave, or that's too high-maintenance for your skill level right now. Therefore, with all due respect for the logic of the previous suggestions, I recommend you focus on the amp first for now.
1. Select 2 or 3 high(er) quality amplifiers from well-known manufacturers (both for support and resale reasons -- this probably won't be your last tube amp ;-) And for now, go with conventional push-pull circuit design (no OTL, SET, etc.) 2. A single chassis (stereo) amp of around 100W/ch should be fine. Many of them can be turned into monoblocks later if, for instance, you bought bigger/different speakers and needed more power.
If you will follow these two suggestions in creating your short list, it will probably include amps from Conrad-Johnson, Cary, BAT, McIntosh, Audio Research. All the conventional 100W/ch amps from these manufacturers are quite capable of driving a wide variety of speakers (even my electrostats) without a fuss. Any more-or-less conventional speaker, like the ones you mention, will perform similarly with all of them. So then it's really a matter of selecting a speaker that sounds beSt to you (IN YOUR HOME IN YOUR SYSTEM!)\
If you will approach the project this way, you can quickly have a really decent tube system that doesn't break the bank yet fits your sonic preferences -- which is what you want right now.
Of the manufacturers I mentioned, probably the McIntosh MC275 (disclaimer: I have one) is the most user friendly AND speaker friendly too. It runs cool, tube bias is factory set and not critical. It puts out a real 95 watts/ch, with balanced circuits, and can be turned into a 180W monoblock at the flip of a switch. It's a really easy tube amp to live with.
Somewhat related. I was pleased that you are focusing on the speaker/amp combo. I believe that should always be the place to start; because IMO, those two elements, taken together, set the sonic character of a system. One can add/subtract different cables, sources, power devices, etc, but they will never override or displace the fundamental "sound" established by the speaker/amp combo.
It appears that both your current speakers and most of your future choices would call for a push-pull tube amp. No SET or even 300B tube amp would probably drive these speakers in a moderately to large room.
That being said, of your two choices, I would choose the McIntosh MC275 amp. Any future reco's would depend on your speaker choice. Of you speaker choices, I cannot claim to have heard them all, but I was very impressed with a pair of Dynaudio S3.4's that a friend of mine owns. As always, YMMV.
tube amps are vast in types of design and tubes used. tubes can limit your choice of speakers and each type of tube has a different sonic signature. it would make much more sense to pick the speakers first then go for the right amp....speakers that like tubes usually have a stable 8 ohm impedance and sensitivity in the 90's...some tube friendly designs are DeVore, Coincident, Silverline. I am a SET man using an 18 watt amp. On your speaker list on the devore's are tube friendly and the Dynaudio the least friendly.
Well I do have a few ideas on which speakers I want eventually, but I think that the tubes may hold me over for a bit. Speakers I am considering. In no particular order Dali MS-4 Dali Helicon 400 MK2 Dynaudio S3.4 Focal 1027BE Devore Super8s Sonus Faber Cremona
I have heard a few of these, and will hopefully hear most of them before making my decision. Unfortunately it is difficult to pick the amp and speaker when you are purchasing them at separate times.
Are you sure you want to pick your next amplifier BEFORE you pick your next speakers?
I say that because you are possibly limiting your choice of speakers by doing so. I recommend auditioning the speakers first, and finding out what you really want in the way of speakers before you buy your amplifier. That way you know what type of amplifier will work best with your speakers. (IMHO, speakers have the most impact on the type of sound that we hear, and speakers are also the most personal of choices that we make for our systems.)
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