You are so right Ben, neither my obvious irreverence nor your profound earnestness will influence the survival or demise of SACD nor of any other format. I do respect your decision to drop out of this discussion, and look forward to reading from you on some other debate of momentus importance.
Sacd/dvd-a, The Hype Is Dead, For Me At Least...
SACD, DVD-A....
I purchased a 2000.00 Universal and about 10 titles mostly SACD
SACD- Nice on surround, actual 5.1 disks, Stereo SACD well if you can get a Re-mastered CD or a Hybrid then its just as good on an awesome Redbook player as thru an SACD decoder... It is interesting.
DVD-A- Most of them ended up very UNDERWHELMING.... as stated earlier, and just a PAIN IN THE A$$...
Vinyl- I am only mentioning this as it seems viable for the discussion, as much garbage as it takes to turn on a DVD-A disc half the time I can put a LP on my VPI record cleaner, and Que it up just as well and it BLOWS away the DVD-A, and Most SACD's... I am not an Analog protector, as a matter of fact I bought My Analog RIG after ATTEMPTING SACD/DVD-A universal world.
CD- Bottom line Re-mastered Cd's and SACD Hybrids sound superior on a good old 16x BIT WADIA 4000.00 player than the SACD on the top of the line Marantz SACD player(this was borrowed)... This will catch much Heat I am sure, but drop the drama, invest Redbook, You can't buy anything on SACD or DVD-a in comparison to well recorded Redbook on a Very good redbook machine unless you are looking for the true benefit of surround SACD's. 2 channel I do not see the point.
Now let me back up, I am irritated only because, I am young, never had vinyl, and I started my High-end(audiophile) Life right in the Middle of SACD/DVD-A War about 2 years ago, so of course I had to have it... I will never go back to the headach of it now that someone was kind enough to show me the true sound of a Wadia player and a Vinyl rig in comparison to it.
I sold all Hi-Def Audio Software and Hardware and took all that money to the used market and Purchased the Wadia and Vinyl rig with YES an old fashoned Record cleaner to get the most out of it, and could not be Happier! Plus 90% of everything you could want is on Vinyl and CD, including New bands, many re-issues, etc...
Don't get me wrong, If you are into the titles that are in abundance on the SACD format GO FOR IT! It sounds VERY VERY good, but if you like maybe 10 CD's that exist on it, take the extra Money and purchase at least a Theta, Wadia, Maybe even Krell Machine(but I do not like the sound as much)... Okay don't take this as bashing, this is Truly my opinion on what I have heard and spent much time testing, And these were all done in home comparisons with Equal cost equipment for the most part for many months. And done in a very good room, good cables, speaker placement, power supply, and acoustic treated room that sounds excellent and does not lie....
I have nothing against the Hi-res music, hell I wanted it, I tried it as a newbee, and there is some definate impressive stuff, the MAIN thing I love about using Hi-res is When you can get your favorite guys in concert with DTS up on the HDTV in front of you, that so far is the only worthy format I have found worth the money and the cause, So I have a Seperate MOVIE / Slash / Concert DVD system that is a lot of fun and phoenominal results... But 2 Channel, get the best CD's or Hybrids, because the Hybrids do for some reason sound better than the originals probably due to they are Re-mastered very well, and a rewarding CD player will show this as much as the SACD counterpart if in a correctly setup system. And Vinyl, Ha well lets just say coming out of college recently my friends laugh until they here it cranked and can't believe it, especially if you have some good stuff to back it, but there is "DOG" recordings on ALL formats so don't think any sytem will Turn coal into a diamond in front of you.
But this all costs money No doubt, I only threw this little thread in here to maybe help some people save some cash... We can't have it all, but you can have it better if you know the direction to go in, I did not, but I found it, and it was full circle all the way back to the begining.. Don't let Hype rule your ears.
I purchased a 2000.00 Universal and about 10 titles mostly SACD
SACD- Nice on surround, actual 5.1 disks, Stereo SACD well if you can get a Re-mastered CD or a Hybrid then its just as good on an awesome Redbook player as thru an SACD decoder... It is interesting.
DVD-A- Most of them ended up very UNDERWHELMING.... as stated earlier, and just a PAIN IN THE A$$...
Vinyl- I am only mentioning this as it seems viable for the discussion, as much garbage as it takes to turn on a DVD-A disc half the time I can put a LP on my VPI record cleaner, and Que it up just as well and it BLOWS away the DVD-A, and Most SACD's... I am not an Analog protector, as a matter of fact I bought My Analog RIG after ATTEMPTING SACD/DVD-A universal world.
CD- Bottom line Re-mastered Cd's and SACD Hybrids sound superior on a good old 16x BIT WADIA 4000.00 player than the SACD on the top of the line Marantz SACD player(this was borrowed)... This will catch much Heat I am sure, but drop the drama, invest Redbook, You can't buy anything on SACD or DVD-a in comparison to well recorded Redbook on a Very good redbook machine unless you are looking for the true benefit of surround SACD's. 2 channel I do not see the point.
Now let me back up, I am irritated only because, I am young, never had vinyl, and I started my High-end(audiophile) Life right in the Middle of SACD/DVD-A War about 2 years ago, so of course I had to have it... I will never go back to the headach of it now that someone was kind enough to show me the true sound of a Wadia player and a Vinyl rig in comparison to it.
I sold all Hi-Def Audio Software and Hardware and took all that money to the used market and Purchased the Wadia and Vinyl rig with YES an old fashoned Record cleaner to get the most out of it, and could not be Happier! Plus 90% of everything you could want is on Vinyl and CD, including New bands, many re-issues, etc...
Don't get me wrong, If you are into the titles that are in abundance on the SACD format GO FOR IT! It sounds VERY VERY good, but if you like maybe 10 CD's that exist on it, take the extra Money and purchase at least a Theta, Wadia, Maybe even Krell Machine(but I do not like the sound as much)... Okay don't take this as bashing, this is Truly my opinion on what I have heard and spent much time testing, And these were all done in home comparisons with Equal cost equipment for the most part for many months. And done in a very good room, good cables, speaker placement, power supply, and acoustic treated room that sounds excellent and does not lie....
I have nothing against the Hi-res music, hell I wanted it, I tried it as a newbee, and there is some definate impressive stuff, the MAIN thing I love about using Hi-res is When you can get your favorite guys in concert with DTS up on the HDTV in front of you, that so far is the only worthy format I have found worth the money and the cause, So I have a Seperate MOVIE / Slash / Concert DVD system that is a lot of fun and phoenominal results... But 2 Channel, get the best CD's or Hybrids, because the Hybrids do for some reason sound better than the originals probably due to they are Re-mastered very well, and a rewarding CD player will show this as much as the SACD counterpart if in a correctly setup system. And Vinyl, Ha well lets just say coming out of college recently my friends laugh until they here it cranked and can't believe it, especially if you have some good stuff to back it, but there is "DOG" recordings on ALL formats so don't think any sytem will Turn coal into a diamond in front of you.
But this all costs money No doubt, I only threw this little thread in here to maybe help some people save some cash... We can't have it all, but you can have it better if you know the direction to go in, I did not, but I found it, and it was full circle all the way back to the begining.. Don't let Hype rule your ears.
133 responses Add your response
Guidocorona I've a lot more faith in SACD surviving than humour when it's in your hands. I promise 100% I will never enter into another debate on SACD as a format on this forum. I simply cannot be arsed with people determined to make their points without actually paying any relevance to the order of points made,the context and the need to make it personal and/or jump to the defence of others. Rejoice and enjoy your music. |
Combi Player that plays pretty good SACD, so-so Video & crappy Redbook. $300-$500 Redbook only player that trounces the SACD capabilities of above player. $3000-$5000 The day when the owners of $3-5k redbook players can at least tell their less financially fortunate audiophile buddies with the cheap combi players, that they have pretty good sound from the SACD for the price spent rather than telling them that it still sucks compared to their brand XYZ player that cost 10-20x as much. Priceless. |
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Its okay 99% of the world thinks were nuts anyway, especially if become aware of how much we spend to find audio answers and they can't even brind themselves to break the bank and buy a 400.00 receiver at best buy. So I can understand, damn I should've just bought a super sweet Plasma and everyone could enjoy!! oh well, back to the dungeon to listen to some overly well produced music. |
Honest Ben, my post was dead serious. You could visit the Monastery of St. Aloysius of Appenzell (CH) and see by yourself where the whole sordid drama unfolded. Thousand of audiophiles from the world over visit in pilgrimage to pay homage to the Saint and listen in awe to the old story retold by the current father Abbott. The three little monks are buried together in an hospital-grade cryo-treated krypt beneath the Eastside Chapel. |
Oh Wow. . that was real profound, almost like. . . wow! Once upon a time, many many ears ago, there were three Audiophile monks who lived in a strict monastery of the Holy Audiophilic Order of Saint Aloysius of Appenzell (CH), on top of Bald Mountain where they were seeking Final Audio Nirvana. For many years our little monks had respected the sacred vow of silence. They would listen in rapturous awe to their little high end audio system built into each cell, but would not utter even the tiniest sound of their own. They communicated amongst themselves only to share their individual state of audio ecstasy, only through their Internet chat scribblings, and occasional mildly suggestive hand/finger gestures. One day, after lengthy Internet consults, our three heros decided to visit father Abbott and request a special year end dispensation. The good Abbott agreed. They had been in fact good audiophilic monks for so many decades, that a little voice chat would not hurt the Monastery's reputation. On the next new year's day, the first little monk would be allowed to utter a single sentence of momentus importance. The second monk would follow suit on the 1st anniversary with an appropriate repost, followed eventually by the third little monk with a final summation on the second anniversary. On New Year's day the three little monks assembled in front of the grand audio system in the Monastery's cathedral. The first little monk gathered his courage and proclaimed ecstatically: "SACDs are dead!" The second little monk looked as if he had just swallowed a cryo-treated blown 1959 pinched waist White labled RCA tube of ill repute, but kept his silence with wounded dignity. On the first anniversary, once again they gathered in front of the great altar to the Goddess of Audiophilia nervosa, and the second little monk, who had held it all in for a full year, spat in a virulent outburst of most unbrotherly wrath: : "Never. . . SACDs are alive. . . and well to boot!" The third little monk looked morose, but remembered his place. Not a peep was heard from him 'til the following New Year's day, when bowing once more together in full humility in front of the mega-galactic system created and worshipped as a supreme Goddess of Audio Nirvana by all the little audiophilic monks of the monastery of Sain Aloysius, he shouted indignantly: "I do hate so these ungodly arguments about SACDs!" And out they filed, the little monks, each of them having uttered his piece. . . . And they have never been heard since. . . or even seen,. . . . or at least so the story goes. Amen! PS. Yet there have been persistent rumours . . . after so many years. . . that in the dead of new Year's Eve. . . muffled and discordant shouting can still be heard, emanating from under the darkened krypts of the cathedral of Bald Mountain. . . |
Robm321 you really are a cracker. CD didn't happen? Nah neither it did. As for waiting a few years well I've already done that and won the argument to this point.It was stated by a few then that SACD was going to take over CD, it remains the niche Audiophile format I said it would. What I think you should do rather than taking about people digging holes (care to point me in the direction where I said I'd hope it would die?)maybe you should read what was written. There's a real inability around here to do that. I'll leave it that. |
Yeah, there will always be decisions on all types of things. Formats, equipment, what is necessary what is not. But after about 6 years and nobody changing from Recording in the standard PCM to DSD in general and taking a chance on putting out pure SACD discs we just will get a few very interested in SACD. But my real point was In re-masters the SACD layer has not completly impressed me so if we go on the hybrid layer of SACD it is more or less determined it does sound about as good on redbook as playing the SACD layer unless running it in surround sound on a 5.1 disc. I never owned a DSD direct disc from the recording all the way thru so I guess my point is not valid as to the capability of SACD, so sure it is capable and in the end technology is advanced over Redbook, but if your looking to replace a portion of a collection of Horrible sounding CD's with SACD only disks then to me its definatly not worth it If you can get it remastered recently or a Hybrid SACD, and just play it back on an excellent redbook player I find it better off, However when possible I will purchase the Hybrid's if available over a standard CD as it has proven to me to sound better as well. Excuse the run-on sentences but its very hard to make technical points this way quickly. |
SACD IS DEAD lol not really I just wanted to say it. I hope it's not dead anyway. Ben you're digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole, at this point cut your losses before you lose more credibility. You may be missunderstood and that's fine, but it's looking like your hoping that you're not missing out on SACD and hoping it dies so you can feel good about only having Redbook capabilities. It's no big deal, you don't have to defend your honor - this is an audio forum. In a few years from now - if you are right then you can rub it in our faces. |
Rch - I totall agree with you for the most part - I have plenty of bad sounding LPs due to the recording. However - in general, my LPs sound much better than my CDs, regardless of hardware. LPs have the ability to take me to that 'next level' whereas with the digital, I always know I'm listening to an approximation. It's probably all in my head. |
IMO, it is not the format but the engineering of the recording that makes all the difference: the studio, mix-down, and mastering. I have many poor and good recordings done in vinyl, magnetic tape, Redbook, and SACD. When I hear a bad one I curse the producer and artist and round file the "format" immediately. Do not forget, recording studios use lousy mics, cables, consoles with tons of chips, with bad acoustics plus inept techs. My venting is complete! :) |
Goatwuss: ummmpossible! We have Audio Necrophilia nervosa, (ANN) and we just covet all formats and technologies that are being numbered among the dead and dying. Call us Ghoulish, but 20 years from now we will be discussing the same formats for identical reasons. I remember when in 1993 I purchased my EAD D7000 with HDCD support. The format had just been born and was already being given a place within audio obituaries. Pressings were in the hundreds only and it was said that wise audiorats were already abandoning the foundering HDCD ship in countless droves. Now, 12 years later HDCD, while not ubiquitous is a fact of everyday consumer life, and is found in a plethora of devices and pressings from all walks of musical life. No funeral for HDCD seems to have taken place yet, or at least, if a funeral ever took place, no HDCD was in attendance. Yet, if you Are planning to organize an SACD funeral any time soon, Let me know. . . I always love a good cry. I'll even bring corn chips and we will fill the empty coffin with pink bubbly, and we will all drink to the imminent ill health of the long living undeparted! |
Apparently I was in error and have received a correction via eMail. Mgottlieb uses X-01 directly into a pre for SACD, but feeds its redbook digital output into the DCS stack. This may very well indicate that the presence or not of complete DSD processing is not a prerequisite for highest quality SACD playback. MGottlieb may want to address this issue directly. |
Henryhk, that's really difficult to say. But you may very well be right. I know mgottlieb uses the X-01 as a transport to his DCS system for SACD. In his judgment X-01 has a better transport, while DCS has a better DAC section. . . and unless I am wrong DCS does do pure DSD. But is the sound of the DCS better because of being purely DSD or is it because they have a better design, or simply because the sound is more to Mgottlieb's liking? Who knows! |
Perhaps so Guidocorona....I have tried the Esoteric orginal universal player...was it X-01? Anyway very good indeed. But I cannot help think that it must make a difference though I am not an engineer. It may be the case that it depends on the recording? Speculating here, but if org recording was done PCM then converted into DSD for the SACD printing, perhaps not much of difference: all that differs is that PCM based players will have to go thru one more conversion....but if DSD recording in the first place, wouldn't a DSD based player do better, other things being equal? In other words the Esoteric is great yes, but perhaps the mechanical engineering (great transport mechanism!) is so superior that it is compensates for this? At the end, you are entirely right, given the digital tech employed is not the only factor, we have to trust our ears as with everything in the end. |
Matrix: The purpose of the INVERT function on your Wadia player is to invert phase, not play the disc backwards :-) Many discs are recorded out of phase, so this can be a valuable feature. Keith Herron had a quip at the CES a few years ago: "We were almost out of phase, so we ordered some more." Brian |
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I hope this provides another slant on things. I walked into Times Square mall in Hong Kong and found a store called SAM The Record Man. I assumed he was part of the North American chain but he clearly wasn't. The cheapest regularly priced CD in his store was over $200US. Talk about CD price sticker shock. Sam, the owner, is a Japanese first cd pressing purist plus an original recording (no remastering please or SACD or 24 bit reissues)purist in the extreme. He puts each customer through a listening session to prove his points and obviously convinces enough people to part with over $200US per disc before they leave (I declined). He has initial Japanese pressings(before the mother disc loses its virginal qualities) of a wide selection on music and is firmly convinced that nothing can rival the initial cd pressing run in Japan, i.e., not SACD, DVD-A, or 24 bit. He insists that all original musicality and imaging is lost in the remastering process. He says just go out and buy yourself an equalizer if you want to remaster cds. I didn't try to argue with him even though there were obvious counter arguments to be made given his extremely sweeping generalizations. He showed me some hi-fi publication write- up on his shop and the author mentioning in the article that he was convinced enough to drop a small bundle on CD purchases. If this sounds interesting to anyone you can contact him at [email protected] He ships worldwide. Colin |
henryhk, it does not ultimately matter what technology is employed by a device, provided it delivers the sound. For example, the Teac Esoteric X-01 as well as its various siblings do DSD2PCM conversion. Yet to my ears. . . the X-01 does sound superb and preferable to DCS.! Trust your ears and do not worry about the underlying alphabet soup! If you preferred better a player that used a pure DSD stream, go for it. Otherwise. . . worry not a yot. In the end we will be listening to music, not deciphering achronyms. |
Matrix, Nothing wrong with enjoying your Redbook. You have a good CD player. The sticking point on SACD is the same as it's always been, availability of quality pure DSD software (forget the other SACD recordings- they don't improve much over Redbook). But the quality is better on pure DSD, and in your case it might not be worth taking the plunge at this point. We'll see about the future. I kind of backed into SACD by getting a Sony XA777ES for it's transport capability to use with with an outboard DAC for Redbook. It turns out to have a very good Redbook DAC itself, and is a great SACD player. Mine was Modified by Modwright and I bought it used for around $1,500. So, it doesn't take a fortune (ie Meitner). But again, there doesn't seem to be enough justification for you to change over at this point. Rob |
Well, I did not spend anywhere near any of those prices for a used wadia... I am content for now. Plus again I experimented enough at this point, and the fact is I do not miss the 2 or 3 SACD discs that made improvements, and definatly do not miss the ones that sounded worse... And I swear that a bowie and aerosmith SACD fell to redbook... but they were just bad recordings. If everything was available then I would definatly go back to a universal with plenty of titles to choose, but I think that train has parked in the sony camp, and may never see the capabilities of SACD universally to all music. |
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Matrix I think if you had tried a Modwright Sony, APL Denon or Exemplar Denon all of which are universal players and cost less than the $4000 Wadia you would have the best of both worlds you were looking for. It is too bad these were not your second choice after the Marantz you would have saved some dough and had state of the art redbook or SACD capability. Just my humble opinion. |
Okay.... I agree, drop 10,000 and it better take a step above 5000.00 just not always the case. So be it, if you can get the 8000.00 universal to be as good on all formats and better than an 8000.00 dedicated Redbook even on redbook , more power to you and if we could have access to this equipment without haveing to buy it to test used, which is mostly the case unless you have dealers in every state that carries every one of these variations, and Meitner or whatever modified machines we will all never find the holy grail as it is called.. So be happy with what you have, if you can make a step towards a very high expense in experimentation do it. This is an audio site for opinion, but seems that points are taken in the wrong direction completly, and we are all Long winded inferior writters in the end trying to prove something, but never come to an answer. Good luck, live on, I have said my peace.. Thanks guys for making it competitive and hopefully with the 9000 posts of jargon someone can come up with an idea of what it all means in the end. |
1. It strikes me that there is an element of apples to oranges. One needs to compare players, regardless of whether its CD or CD/SACD, in a similiar price range. The flow of logic and commentary does not always seem to be the case. 2. As it took sometime to redbook to develop with also profileration of players, same thing with SACD. Interestingly as SACD titles slow down, new players are being introduced by various mfrs. Typically they start with their flagship and then provide more economic models. Ayre just introduced a universal two channel only no video player for example. 3. The claim, no I would say assumption that CD/SACD players are not as good on redbook as pure redbook players I find very misleading...it all depends on the player themselves. Compared to a redbook only player in a similiar price range, Meitner, Esoteric, Ayre, dcs (all SACD) or Arcam, Meridien (DVD_A) all I think have nothing to be ashamed of, and indeed in certain cases actually exceed their redbook counterparts on redbook. 4. The real question remains title availability, especially those recorded in DSD (which makes a huge difference) and u got me there. For me thus high rex is icing on the cake, a niche to pursue while NOT sacrficing redbook performance. I feel the Meitner gear provides superior redbook performance (compared to say Wadia) so there u go. |