Raven Blackhawk LE... am I going to be disappointed?

You're saying it would be easier to cut open the amp and unwind windings? Remember to put brain in gear before releasing clutch on mouth. Sage advice from long ago.

And yet some will still try and tell you watts are all the same.

Robert Harley had it right- "If the first watt isn't any good why would you want 200 more of them?"

We will know soon enough. James tells me it should ship early next week. I'm already having buyer's remorse- for not pulling a couple all-nighters to drive down and get those mono blocks. Man those are some serious eye - and ear - candy. Oh well.

Easily the best photography of any Raven I have seen. Now I know what Dave and willgolf are talking about. Just beautiful! They are huge though. That alone gives me pause. If only it was a Shadow. I'd be all over it. 

Holy smokes! I just ordered a Blackhawk. But, wow, tempted to drive down there. Yes it is a long drive but, wow!

That's the technical explanation for why Krissy magic works especially well inside speakers. So much energy is wasted that if you improve electrical efficiency even a tiny little bit it results in big gains releasing tremendous dynamics and incredible inner detail.

Sorry about the word "proselytizing." That word implies that a certain way of doing things is the only best way.

Apology accepted. Especially since I get it now. Lots of people use words they don’t understand, thinking they mean one thing when really they mean another. Proselytizing is nothing to do with being the best, it is trying to convert one to a way of thinking, to which I plead guilty. But with religious connotations that implies belief, to which I emphatically say no way. My reasons are logical, and sensible, and that is that.

So, would you agree that high efficiency speakers are only one "best" way to go?
Or would you agree that moderate efficiency speakers can also be "best"?

Again, this is about an approach, not any particular set of speakers. Said many times what I think about certain speakers. But it helps to not confuse the issues. The big long sections you quoted should be required reading, but there is nothing in any of it saying anything at all about how they sound, let alone what is "best".

The issue I am addressing is nothing to do with any one particular speaker- or amp, for that matter. Instead of specifics I am talking about an overall or over-arching approach. Never said you or anyone cannot build a beautiful satisfying and excellent sounding system with 87dB or whatever speakers. Simply said you are making it unnecessarily hard on yourself to take that approach.

This is the furthest thing from controversial. Sure it ruffles some feathers when people see themselves in my comments. Too bad. Follow the proselytization, come around, live the good life. It is so much easier you won’t believe.

So when you say it, works for you. When I say it, proselytizing. Right. Got it. Thanks.

Great job b_limo, doing all the right things one step after another not getting distracted by the nonstop string of irrelevant comments.

hilde45, can you explain how you worked through all the math that proves the unsuitability of low sensitivity speakers and then nevertheless came to the conclusion there is no need for high sensitivity speakers? I mean, this is literally a wait, what?!

95+dB is really the place to be. But I get flack for even saying 92. That to me is rock bottom. As I suspect you are now really beginning to understand why. Your Raven is an absolutely fantastic amp, but one rendered out of bounds and unsuitable simply by the shortsighted decision to buy inefficient speakers.

That one move dooms and limits you forevermore to a hundred watts, minimum. Even then it is almost impossible to get the kind of effortless speed and dynamics you are going to be hearing, in spades, with Double Impacts.

But think of it, that Raven/Tekton combination is only about $6k! Which if instead your speakers were a typical 89dB could easily be 3X the money and still not get there! Not in SPL, not in quality. The typical 89dB speaker requires nearly ten times the power to do what your 98dB DI will do. People really should do the math. 20 watts and 98dB speakers, or 200 watts and 88dB. Which do you suppose you can buy higher quality with $3k? 200 watts? Or 20?

Then with the money you save not having to buy hundreds of watts you buy Pods, Podiums, turntable- now you are in heaven!

Pair that Raven up with Moab, you will not believe. Not even. Seriously. Your amp is way better than mine, and if you heard mine you would freak. When I say way better, talking with Dave Thompson it turns out he had my same amp. He said nice little amp, nothing wrong with it, sounds real good. But it sounds flat and dull next to a Raven. So there you go. 

Which only goes to show, "All watts are not created equal" is a whole lot more mellifluous. Come to think of it, so are tubes.

I don’t agree with millercarbon on everything, but it’s sad to see him getting attacked like this.

+1 for millercarbon.

Too funny. Pretty much all the haters have so little on the ball it is more embarrassing themselves than doing any real harm to me. We are after all making progress, building a better more informative forum for the exchange of ideas.

Sure the MDS is sad and can get a bit tedious at times. Although, I do think maybe there is another way of looking at it. Truth be told, it is a little like John Wick. Without all the villains trying to take him out, where would he be? At home with his dog. Who wants to watch that?

b_limo- I am just blown away by this amp.  I just left and dropped off the Belles at Fed Ex; big gime sellers remorse.  Come home and fire up the Raven and Man, watts are bs, Im telling you.  These are some really really healthy 20 watts.  With the speakers running full range snd 1 velodyne Hgs 10 in the center and its rocking out.  It plays right up to a satisfying level for me (sorry neighbors, but I like it loud) and the sound quality is through the roof.  Im so happy with this amp.  Wow!

Beautiful. And I have to say, as much as I enjoy seeing you so happy with this it is equally as sweet being right, and watching all the heads explode! Reading this is the closest I will get to Usain Bolt glory. Oh, the delicious backpedaling above! No, it is not "incredible variety" it is a fricken insane good amp! Some can hear it, some can't. We can. Take another lap with the flag flowing......   

People can learn from this, I mean if they are the least bit inclined to learning in the first place. Watts are not all created the same. If anyone proved that you just did, with a 20W tube amp that plays "right up to a satisfying level" like the 75W SS you just had- which in turn was better than 100-200 watt amps.    

That's just one lesson, one of the more obvious ones.    

Another trickier lesson, don't assume that because you read something you know everything. I thought you had one amp, turns out later you have another. You have an older Raven, they change a bit over the years, without a full and complete description you have an older one than I thought. Any idea how old? They will probably be able to pin it down by S/N. Would be nice to know for people like me still evaluating. Because Raven is always trying to make them better. So as good as yours is, as wonderful as it sounds, the new ones sound even better. Just to put it in perspective, because we do sadly have a number around here just find it so very hard to believe this stuff really is as good as it is.

The Raven sub out gives the option of running the amp full range, or using the filter to trim the bass from the amp at 80Hz or 100Hz. It is a 6dB/octave slope so set at 80Hz the amp is down 6dB at 40Hz which means 1/4 the power at that point. Helluva lotta amp for $3800 https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/blackhawk-mk3/

Yeah, so these 20 watts are plenty. So weird. Who would have thought.

Too funny. 
Heads explode as millercarbon takes another victory lap.

That’s one interpretation. Another is, it is typical of solid state performance to exaggerate leading edges relative to the full body of the tone. They almost always get this balance wrong, which does have the effect on some guys of thinking this is tight, greater definition, more detail, etc. When in reality it is just added glare.

Instead of trying to fit everything into a preconceived narrative, how about reading the actual listener comments?

The openess, bloom and freq response is amazing.

These comments are totally at odds with "lack of current to fully drive" anything. You simply do not get openess and bloom with a lack of anything. What you get instead is compression and congestion. The idea the amp is running out of current is not based on anything in evidence here. It is pure preconceived narrative.

Sounds like you got a winner. There is nothing wrong with the Sub Out. It does not adjust level, you do that on the sub not the amp. All the Sub Out does is pass the input signal to the sub. It is outside the pre-amp circuit. That is why it works even when the amp is off.

Warmup for any amp of this quality level is more a continuum than a destination. My Melody is not as good as a Raven, but I turn it on half an hour before listening, run some demagnetizing tracks through it, and still the sound gets better and better for quite some time. I would say the "warmup" is something like a matter of minutes to sound pretty good, an hour to sound really good, and then who knows how long to finally top out. This is of course a combination of not only the amp quality but the overall system transparency and listener skill level. Many people will not notice anything different after 20-30 minutes.

Your amp here however, while used it sat idle who knows how long. This first time being fired up it may be a little longer coming into full form. Not a lot, but that is just the way it is with anything high end that has been off a long time, jostled around, exposed to temperature extremes, etc.  

Taps are purely for convenience and to give you the option to find one that might sound a little better. Which tap you run means nothing as far as the amp itself is concerned. There is a technical difference of course but all that matters is if one does sound better, use that one. Regardless of what the speakers are rated or the amp says. This is sort of like loading a phono cartridge, you try different ones and go with the one you like the best.

I am definitely seeing the appeal in a good tube amp though, whoa. The openess, bloom and freq response is amazing. I think its going to have enough power too which is really really surprising...

Surprising to you, my friend, and some others. As for me? Situation normal.

Yes way. Based on extrapolation. Several different 50-60 watt tube amps run with different speakers produced bass at least as good as 150-200 watt solid state amps. Compared in the same system. (Part of why I bought them.) With tube amps the ones with really high quality transformers tend to be best at this. Raven uses exceptionally high quality transformers. Allowing for this a 20 watt Raven being equivalent in perceived power to a 50-100 watt solid state is about right.

Compare and contrast this experience and practical reasoning with, "yes you WILL be disappointed by the Raven. Have not actually heard...." Wonderful. Have you tried using all caps to write other uninformed ideas? Does all caps somehow endow the words with gravitas and credibility?

So you ask the designers of amplifiers about speaker design. Fascinating. What do the designers of toasters think, I wonder?   

Meanwhile, back in the world of sense and logic, we ask speaker builders about speakers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMAO9LPsups

Sad reality, the speakers you have never will give you the dynamics and volume you want. No matter how many watts you buy. It works like this: sound and power are logarithmic.

What that means, your 88dB speakers require TEN TIMES the watts to play as loud as 98dB Tekton Moabs. What this means, my Moabs with my 50 WPC Melody will play like 500 watts into your 88dB speakers. Five hundred. You literally cannot buy enough watts to compete, and that is with just my dinky Melody at 50 watts.

And think of it, these same speakers can handle 400 watts. Yeah. Don’t even want to know how loud that is, 50 is way more than enough in my rather good sized room.

But even then, even if you do find the 500 watt amp, and take out the second mortgage to buy it, even then no way it sounds anywhere near as mesmerizingly captivatingly draw you in good as a quality tube amp like the Blackhawk. Forget about it. Not happening. Never heard one yet. Instead what you get is dreck like ML, Krell, sorry they just aren’t doing it. I could go on all day, when before the end of Side One in my room you would be on the phone to Eric. Take it to the bank. Sign it. Cash it. Spend the money.

Had a nice long talk with Dave Thompson the other day. We were talking amps. I mentioned my Melody. Dave started describing the Melody he had used way back and still has sitting in a box somewhere. I say that's the same amp, I880 integrated. Dave says nice amp, he liked it enough to buy it, and still has it. But flat compared to a Blackhawk. I said yeah what I figured. And compared to the Reflection? "Oh, my, yes. That is something special."  

So yeah, been seriously considering the Reflection for a while now. Right around a year I guess. Which is pretty much the way I do it. Research the crap out of it, read all the reviews and comments, talk to some owners, let it stew and gel a while, finally call the owner/builder/designer. Just your normal due diligence.  

The way the sub out works, you have a choice. The sub out signal is always there, so no matter what you can run the mains full range and subs at the same time. In addition to this there is the option of using the built-in crossover to filter the low end off of the mains. When you do this, because so much of the power is down low it greatly reduces the power load on the amp. If you read up on my posts about how DBA and subs work you will see it is better as far as deep bass is concerned to have full range floor standers continue to get full range signal. In your case however that is more than balanced out by the need to lighten the load on the amp in order to drive those 88dB speakers. 

The Blackhawk uses a 6dB per octave high pass filter that can be set at 80Hz or 100Hz. It depends a little on your room and situation but you typically want to avoid running subs higher than 80 in order to avoid being able to localize them. Set at 80, then your Salk will be down 6dB at 40 which means one fourth the amplifier power. The subs will easily pick this up and so this will allow you to run those mains a lot higher volume than you otherwise would. You were already pretty close and with a sub I think you are home free. 

Especially since you are already open to new speakers like Tekton. I can say for sure the 20W Blackhawk will drive a pair of Moabs to deliriously high level, and sound the business while doing so! 

88dB is pretty low. 92 is my cutoff for consideration, and you are well below that. Still, what really matters is you prefer quality over quantity. The Ravens 20 tube watts is comparable to 50 to 100 solid state pseudo-watts, and you already know you prefer a really nice sounding 75 to not so nice 225.  

There's people in your situation who have been disappointed, but they never write detailed reviews so you never really know, it may have been all down to unrealistic expectations. I think as long as you know you are not buying a high power headbanger and are more into a believable compelling presentation you will probably be find. Captivated, maybe even. We hope!   

Not just saying that because I am in the process of buying a Raven Reflection MkIII either. ;)