Miyajima MADAKE experience


I've noticed that many (if not all) Kansui users tryin' to sell their Miyajima Kansui to upgrade to new released Madake of the higher price. I have zero experience with Kansui or Madake, but i have checked all the rave reviews (there are not so many btw) and spoken to several distributors in Eupore and USA. Seems like Kansui is great even with aluminum cantilever and shibata stylus. Everybody talking about organic sound and musicality of Miyajima top of the line cartridges.

BAMBOO CANTILEVER of the MADAKE is def. exotic solution along with Miyajima-san's CROSS COIL / CROSS RING method.

Appart from the distributors and reviewers it's always important to ask real users (who paid full price) about their Madake experience.

I wonder how this cartridge perform against top of the line modern hi-end cartridges such as ZYX, Benz, Dynavector ... you name it.

Anyone who didn't like it and why ?

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I use the Zero for mono, and it's fine. However, it lacks the ultimate refinement of my higher end Koetsu.
Terry as you know Madake is top of the line and totally different:

"Instead of using a metal to fashion the cartridge's cantilever (aluminum, boron, etc) or a crystalline solid such as sapphire, ruby or diamond, the Madake actually uses BAMBOO. Madake is famously grown on one mountain in Kyoto, the site of a famous temple, and the source of the material used to make the cantilever of the Madake stereo phono cartridge."

How many cartridges with BAMBOO CANTILEVER exists in the history of Hi-End Audio ?

A few images of the Bamboo cantilever linked below:

https://www.audiomeister.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/madake05.jpg

http://www.hfc.com.pl/Resources/news/miyajima-madake-XL.jpg
And the specifications of Miyajima Madake MC:

 Impedance:  About 16 ohms (About 0.23mV output)
 Frequency range: (-3dB)  20 Hz to 32 kHz
 Tracking force: 2.5 g
 Stylus Shape: Shibata (diamond needle)
 Compliance (10Hz): around 9×10-6cm/dyne
 Appropriate temperature: 20-30 Celsius (most suitable 25 C)

 Weight:  about 9.7g
 Body:  African Blackwood

source: www.miyajima-lab.com/e-stereo.html
I like my Kansui well enough but really, this "grown on one mountain in Kyoto" stuff sounds too parodic for me to take it seriously. Unless, of course, cave monks have warmed the tiny bamboo slivers under their keisters while achieving absolute consciousness.
Stefano Bertoncello visited Miyajima-Lab in 2009 and reported this in his blog:

"There I met Miyajima-san and his beautiful, well sounding audio system, and... his daughter, an handsome and skilled young artisan whose little, good hands were the responsible for hand-assemblying of ALL the MC cartridges which I saw in a batch under her hands."

full article with pictures here:
http://twogoodears.blogspot.ru/2009/10/wjaas-hakata-blues-miyajima-sanotono.html
I just noticed high resolution picture of all Miyajima cartridges can be found here: www.miyajima-lab.com/all-img.html

I can imagine how hard it could be to make alignment of this cartridge body with any pro-tractor.
We had a room at RMAF a couple of years ago, and we used the Kansui. The room was exceedingly well received, no doubt in part to the credit of the Miyajima.
Hello Mosin
On which tonearm did you used Kansui at RMAF ?
We used a 9.4" Schröder Reference SQ. If my memory serves me, it is 16 grams effective mass.
I think I've been on that "mountain" in Kyoto, which is actually a hill, the climbing of which is very strenuous exercise, even though there are steps all the way to the top. On the top, there is a shrine and monks doing their thing. It was more a mystical experience than a musical one. I share the doubts that bamboo on that hill would be any different from bamboo on some other nearby hill that is subjected to the same weather. But then, I'm an agnostic in all things. If folks are selling their Kansui's in order to obtain the new model, I may be a buyer of a Kansui.
There shouldn't be any crazy marketing tricks as US distributor sell Miyajima cartridges on trial and accept return for full refund! Can you imagine, i wish European distributors could do the same, but they are not. Also retipping by Miyajima-San in Japan via US distributor cost just $1100 (for Kansui) as far as i know (when the cartridge cost $3600 new).

However Madake cost $5895 in USA. Awaiting Fremer’s review.
Doesn't SoundSmith make a cartridge with a cactus needle (serving as both cantilever and stylus?)? That interests me, too. But there has not been much word on the street about it, even though it's been in production for a while.
Yes Lewm
The Hyperion, Soundsmith’s moving-iron phono cartridge with cactus needle cantilever.

"Superior cantilever designs, Ledermann explained, have traditionally been tapered—a technique that’s difficult to accomplish with aluminum and even more difficult with extremely hard and durable materials such as boron, ruby, and diamond. Cactus needles, however, are naturally tapered, stiff, and durable, while their stacked fibers provide natural dampening."

"The Hyperion moving-iron phono cartridge ($7000) is available with Soundsmith’s CL or OCL styli, has a recommended tracking force of 1.8 to 2.2 grams, an output of 0.3mV, and is compatible with MC phono preamps. It is also available in a linear-tracking version, the Hyperion LT. Soundsmith guarantees the Hyperion for 10 years, and Peter Ledermann will retip the cartridge for free if it wears out within that time."

Source: http://www.stereophile.com/content/soundsmith’s-hyperion-phono-cartridge-cactus-needle-cantilever
No so many users on agon ot they don't want to share their Madake experience ? Anything else is sonically close to this cartridge on the market ?

p.s. anothe Kansui right now in the sales section btw
This is probably the latest (July 2015) article about Miyajima Kansui from Koetsu Rosewood user:

https://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/2015/07/31/miyajima-mc-cartridges-fresh-thinking/

"The Koetsu Rosewood paints a beautiful sound picture with magical emphasis on harmonic information and nuances revealed."

"The Miyajima presents a more “solid” sound, surprisingly, with much more low-end power – and “stereo image” definition achieved without excess brightness.  Voices and instruments are clearly located in space."


Any other Koetsu Rosewood Signature users here ? These cartridges are in the same league ? Very interesting. 





I am a Kansui user and I find it to be a great cartridge. Don't see much anymore on sale here though. 
Hi Musicgene, do you have/had any other MC cartridges surpassed by Kansui or anything else sounds close to Kansui character?  
The Madake is up with the best of the best, of any cartridge I have ever heard.

 I might agree about the fru-fru bit of any particular bamboos,  but,  I can say that I cannot deny it.

   Bamboo is a plant, as as such, is highly influenced by its growing environment.    Many centuries of working with bamboo would, necessarily, make one very familiar with it's subtle qualities.

   Then, someone discovers that Bamboo makes a very good cantilever.

Then, in consideration of of the qualities of what makes a great cantilever, bamboo which exhibits these characteristics the most, is selected.

Enter, the Madake....

 
@ilikmangos i’m curious which "the best of the best" cartridges do you mean, can you recall some of them? It will help to understand how good is the Miyajima Madake. 
The Dynavector XV-1s, which was my reference cartridge for a while,  the XV-1t, the Koetsu Signature Rosewood Platinum, Linn Akiva, and Kandid,  SME A95, Benz Ebony LP, Miyajima Shilabe. 

  I do not know the Kansui.

So,  not that many cartridges,  a somewhat modest list, but the Madake really impressed me. 

I injured myself yesterday, and am heading in to surgery later this morning, so,   I am bowing out of this thread for now.   

 If you have a chance to listen to a Madake,   I hope you enjoy it.  It is a really nice cartridge.



Interesting thread. My initial experience borrowing the Waza (good but not quite all it could be, clearly an early design) led me to buy a Shilabe, then a couple of years later, a Kansui.

The Kansui is superb. I've owned some pretty high-end cartridges including the Audio Note Io2 and Koetsu Rosewood Signature, and the Kansui for me came out on top by quite a margin. Indeed I sold the Io2 (and the Kondo S6 SUT I used with it) when I bought the Kansui, which I use with Hashimoto HM7s - far more organic and musical. (The Io is great in many ways too, but a bit more hifi).

One thing to note is that like the Shilabe, the Kansui likes a heavy tonearm - in theory it's more compliant, but only a shade. I'm having great results with the Ikeda arm and also with an Ortofon RMG Limited (a very well appointed top spec version of the Japanese reissue of the vintage RMG). Had good results too with my previous Fidelity Research FR64S.

I'd love to hear the Madake but I'm a bit skeptical of the back story - I'm in no rush to trade in the Kansui.

It shares a stable with quite a few other cartridge including two from Miyajima  - Zero 0.7 tip and Premium 78 mono - an SPU GM Mono MkII for early mono, an Ortofon SPU Royal, and an Ikeda 9TT.

All have their moment but I'd put the cheaper Kansui above the 9TT even in the Ikeda arm and headshell.
@montesquieu thanks for your story, i believe it was your post on theartofsound. Have you ever tried FR-7fz? And what was your source to buy hashinoto sut? 
Sorry only just seen this post.

My Hashimotos came from Mr Isao Asakura, a Japanese long based in the USA and who trades on the site tube-amps.net - they were delivered to me in Japan on a holiday visit, to a beautiful onsen in Kyoto prefecture.  (I travelled from Taiwan where I was on an extended trip for a month or so).

Though the HM-7s are somewhat redundant following purchase of an EAR 912 phono preamp which has a truly stunning complement of phono step-ups. (Same values, but not, I suspect, same transformers as the EAR MC4 step-ups - I think the quality is far higher, this is Mr de Paravacini's vinyl statement and I think he has gone as high as he practically can on quality).

I have tried FR1 Mk 1, 2 and 3, but not FR7 ... I was offered an FR-702 recently but a re-tip, too expensive for the relative risk (non-factory re-tips are very hit-and-miss in my experience). So I passed on this.

As it happens only tonight I agreed to buy a Madake ... so I am eagerly awaiting it. I will report back.
Latecomer to this post...

I own the Miyajima Madake and use it on an SME V arm. It replaced a Clearaudio Stradivari on which I broke the cantilever and then used as a trade in.

The Stradivari was a good high resolving cart but I never loved it. It could at times be a bit sharp. I borrowed a Koetsu Black from a friend and while that was all smooth I did, after an initial period of total infatuation, long for some treble extension.

With the Madake I get firm bass, good speed and detail resolution and smooth but extended treble. What more could I ask for?

My other favourite cartridge is the Cartridgeman MusicMaster, which is similar to the Madake in presentation but somewhat weaker in the bass and hence not as "muscular" in its presentation (the "budget" option).

I’m happy now, my quest for the perfect cartridge is over.

But then again, a London Decca for my Garrard 401 project could be fun...

@mhr1229 

My other favourite cartridge is the Cartridgeman MusicMaster, which is similar to the Madake in presentation but somewhat weaker in the bass and hence not as "muscular" in its presentation (the "budget" option).

That's interesting.
The Cartridgeman Musicmaster MI cartridge cost  £1,649.00 and looks similar to Grado cartridges. In fact the generator is Grado, but the stylus is different, they call it "Propriatery Line Contact". I've never owner Cartridgeman pickups, but i'm familiar with Grado house sound, the best i've heard is Joseph Grado's Signature model: Grado TXZ with very special stylus profile called "Twin Tip" (it was a $750 top of the line model back in the days) and probably better than current Grado cartridges of any kind, still cheaper than Cartridgeman.

I'll be surprised if Madake is close to Grado XTZ as you said it is close to Cartridgeman based on Grado MI generator. Hmm.  
Coming rather late to this thread. Along with a stable of SPUs (stereo and mono) and an Ikeda 9TT currently I have previously owned the Miyajima Waza, Shilabe and Kansui, as well as mono models Kotetu, Premium BE, 78 and Zero. (I still have the Zero and Premium 78 - to the chap with the Zero I would suggest running it at the top end of the recommended VTF range in a very heavy arm - I find no issue with detail vs quite a number of mono cartridges past and present).

Anyway the Madake .. this arrived a few days ago to replace the Kansui, and while I wouldn't say it's night and day it definitely offers something over the Kansui (as indeed the Kansui did over the Shilabe). First thing is its remarkable tracking ability this tracks any obstacle test and hasn't broken sweat with any music recording I've thrown at it. It is noticably better/easier than the Kansui in this regard.

It also has the Kansui's way with openness, naturalness and ease, turned up a notch. Back to back you might just think the hifi was having a good night - character is very similar to Kansui - but it's a good night that is consistent, and turned up a notch. It digs out a lot of detail too but not in a 'hifi' way that the Ikeda can seem to do at times. It has as before a lot in common with the top end SPUs, closest is probably the SPU A95 I heard recently.

I am running it on my EAR 912 at the '40 ohm' setting which I think is about 500 ohms at the trafo - slightly higher than the recommended 200 ohms which sounds fine, my '12 ohm' setting gives about that I think - but the 40 ohm setting is a shade more open, relaxed and spacious.

All this on an Ikeda IT345-CR1 tonearm/headshell, I haven't tried it yet on my Ortofon RMG309 Limited. I may get to that tonight.
Montesquieu,  First impressions are not always lasting ones. Especially with a phono cartridge that is itself changing character as it breaks in from new.  I would be interested to know whether your opinion of the Madake vs the Kansui persists over time.  Thanks.