Integrated Amplifiers - Luxman vs Pass Labs

Hi bigkidz:  " Our reference equipment does not always sound the best. We learned that certain things just don’t work together to produce the best sound. Blanket statements like this one sounds that way compared to the other are completely useless. You have to try them in your system period."   Well said. These are good words to live by in the audio world. Jeff  

Comparing Pass amplifiers to a couple AR tube amplifiers and then saying they sound lean doesn’t really prove the argument that Pass .8 amplifiers sound lean compared to most mainstream solid state amplifiers including Luxman, in my mind at least.

Yea, I’ve owned a PrimaLuna integrated amplifier for a while when I owned Cornwalls 3s, and an all tube Mystique preamp too to try with my solid state amps, and both had and added lots of warmth and a fuller sound than either my XA250.8 or XA30.8, but I don’t find that unexpected or that they also would not have a fuller sound than C900+M900 Luxman combo I listened to.

The class AB 150.8 is like 15 watts class A; if you want to hear the fuller sounding Pass listen to the XA.8 models.

My Classe CA300 was very smooth and powerful but I don’t remember it being as full sounding as my 30.8; I never got a chance to compare them directly. I’ve heard Sugden amps over the years that have had a nice full sound.

If my 30.8 is lean, then it would be interesting to hear how you describe the sound of say the Benchmark AHB2 :)

@ddafoe 

I agree, the Pass int 250 was clearly warmer with a fuller more meaty presentation and had a more powerful bass.compared to Boulder 866 and Accuphase E800.

Describtions like lean, thin, sterile, scratchy, etc makes me wonder?!

@ddafoe this was my result in my system comparing to other amps I’ve owned or heard. Was I shocked at the results yes I was. The 150.8 came highly recommended but my experience was not very good. The next owner felt the same. I’m not saying it’s a bad amp because it did some things very well but midrange in my system wasn’t one of them.

@ddafoe this was my result in my system comparing to other amps I’ve owned or heard. Was I shocked at the results yes I was. The 150.8 came highly recommended but my experience was not very good. The next owner felt the same. I’m not saying it’s a bad amp because it did some things very well but midrange in my system wasn’t one of them.

Hi; whether you like the sound of the Pass amp or not is certainly for you to decide :) My point was simply that blanket statements like Pass sounds lean and then mention amplifiers with tubes in them as a comparison, or that the comparison was made with their lower class A bias X.8 amps, isn’t really fair.

@ddafoe fully agree!  Pass is a very good SS amp compared with  bunch of other amplifiers.

It is really unfair to compare with tube one, as they are in 2 different leagues. You can not compare apple with orange.

I was just commenting on my experience and another friend who has had the same experience.  I've heard many solid state amps over the years and the X .8 series didn't float my boat.  I'm not bashing Pass because it's a very good company and make great products.  

Pass amps aren't lean sounding. Class D yes..

Sorry, didn't get that comment at all. 

There's a great video from Steve Huff, where he discusses his favourite integrated amps. He compares Lux to Pass.

The X series isn't rich and full lol. I found it very clinical and it had no midrange magic. This is my experience and I don't care what you think sorry.  I know several who feel the same.  It did a lot of things well but the midrange was boring and almost etchy. 

Hi folks. Great thread. I am pretty new around here but thought I’d chime in….with my experience using Pass Labs XA60.8 mono blocks and a Pass Labs XP-12 preamp. 
 

I do not have experience using a Pass integrated or any experience using the 500 series  Luxman integrated products. 
 

To OP had some specific questions about Pass Labs that I can speak to from my experience in my room. 
 

1)  is one frequency a little more pronounced than the others?

Nope. The sound is balanced across the frequency range.  The lower frequencies (say 30-50Hz) are just as present as the highs and mids.  The lows are clear right and fast, and for some, the sound may seem to emphasize or over express the bass region - but I believe this may be due to the amps ability to perform well in this frequency region. perhaps because the Pass amps are stable down to a single ohm may help in this regard.

2)  what is the soundstage like in terms of width and depth  

in my room with speakers pulled out 7 feet from the wall and 3 feet from the sidewalks, the soundstage is deep and wide - almost 360. .  Sometimes on I turn around thinking someone has opened the door behind me - but it was just the music! Trippy  

3)  How would you describe the sound in terms of Hi-Fi vs Natural sounding

loaded question as this depends on many factors.  But for me, on good recordings, listening to piano and voice helps determine the “naturalness” of the sound.  But again, this is more a system synergy type evaluation.  

4)  Do you find the sound to be veiled in anyway?

this is the kicker question. Here is where the Pass sound really shines for me.  Transparency.   I have never heard an amplifier bring absolute stunning transparency to the scene as Pass. It is spooky! how transparent Pass amps can be.  Literally, hearing new details and delicacy in music I’ve heard a thousand times before. When I heard that …and felt it….I knew these amps were special beasts.  
 

saying all this..I agree with a few other comments about the Pass sound that is a bit against popular commentary.   I do not find the Pass sound, in my system, in my room, to be warm and tube-like.  Mayyyyybe…because the midrange is so pure and the top end delicate and clear that that’s why folks are making this comparison - but the overall transparency, I would say, is the dominant sensation where you can literally hear deep into recordings like i never have before.   I’ve never heard tube systems give me this sensation - mind you I haven’t heard $20K tube setups in my room - so perhaps my experience is limited and tube systems really can sound extremely transparent with tight fast bass and stable down to 1 ohm.   Did I just open. Can of worms.? Hahaha 

Good luck in your search. And as many folks have indicated - you can’t go wrong with either.  1st world problems…

peace. 

Ps. I should have mentioned. My Speakers are:

Verity Audio Parsifal Anniversary

Klipsch Cornwall IV

The X series isn't rich and full lol. I found it very clinical and it had no midrange magic.

@samzx12, so you are unequivocally saying all of the Pass X.8 series amps are not rich and full sounding?

e.g.

XA25, XA30.8, XA60.8, XA160.8, XS150, XS300

X150.8, X250.8, X260.8, X350.8, X600.8

You mentioned you had tried their cheapest class AB amp; I didn't know you have listened to the rest of the X.8 line...

I have not heard the XA series and I know they are a different animal.  I didn't say I heard all the X series. Just the X150.8.  I can't imagine the rest of the .8 series is much different or why they would be.  Typically the lower powered amps have a sweeter sound than the higher powered amps. 

I do have a question.  Does anyone know the difference between the XA30.8 vs X150.8?  Since the X150.8 is Class A up to 15 watts and I needed a higher powered amp for the Olympica iii,  it was recommended I go with the X150.8.  

In addition,  I'm not trying to hijack the OP thread. :)

4) Do you find the sound to be veiled in anyway?

this is the kicker question. Here is where the Pass sound really shines for me. Transparency. I have never heard an amplifier bring absolute stunning transparency to the scene as Pass. It is spooky! how transparent Pass amps can be. Literally, hearing new details and delicacy in music I’ve heard a thousand times before. When I heard that …and felt it….I knew these amps were special beasts.

@tj-sully

I appreciate that the above impressions are based on the Pass Labs XA60.8 mono blocks and a Pass Labs XP-12 preamp. Nevertheless, these are separates and not the integrated that the OP is asking.

Steve Huff has compared the Pass Labs INT250 and INT25(which he owned for a period of time) to the Luxman L-590AXII. Transparency to me represents detail, and the Luxman is said to sound more detailed than both Pass units.

Reviews in the links below with their respective excerpts;

Pass Labs INT-250 Review

"Luxman 590 AXII – Sweet, a little leaner than the Pass Labs with more detail so this is more for those who crave sharpness and detail over warmth and liquidity. Class A 30 watts but what it lacks in body compared to pass it makes up for in sweetness and dynamics. Made in Japan."

Pass Labs INT-25 Review

"Some may wonder what I think of the INT-25 compared to the Luxman 590AXII which is another beautiful heirloom quality integrated that comes in at around $9000. I could live with either but I would be happier with the Pass with my current speakers. The Luxman is more detailed, and has a thinner mid bass."

In this video, the Luxman L-590AXII is said to be more detailed than Pass Labs INT-250. Both units are in the top 3 list of best integrated amps of all time.

Hey Ryder,  yes of course this thread is about integrated amplifiers. But the op is also asking about the overall  house sound of Pass.  I own Pass products so I thought would  provide my own personal opinion.  Not something from a review or YouTube video. My own.  Cheers. 
“can anyone be more specific about the Pass sound (more specifically the Integrated's but also the overall house sound of Pass) 

Hi tj-sully. Don’t get me wrong. Of course you are entitled to provide your experience on the Pass Labs amp which you own. I’m just providing information on the comparison between the Pass Labs and Luxman in response to the remark which you made about the transparency of the Pass. The reviews and YouTube video are perfectly valid as they are specific to this thread. The reviewer has compared both Luxman and Pass Labs integrateds while both of us only have experience with either one. Although useful impressions, it’s pretty much a one-sided affair.

Two things:

1) Very few posters in this thread have had Luxman and Pass amps in their systems at the same time. Our aural memory is shockingly short - some studies suggest as short as 15 seconds.

2) Opinions are all over the map.

When you are spending serious dollars on equipment, you need to listen for yourself, ideally comparing both brands in your system. Not always easy to do though.

One thing worth noting is that Pass integrateds are bare bones affairs. Luxman’s feature set is better. Plus they look nicer IMHO.

FWIW, I have no Luxman experience in my system. I own a Pass Labs XA30.5, driving high efficiency open baffle speakers (Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires). I enjoy this pairing so much that I would only move up the Pass Class A line, most likely just to the XA30.8. Incredible detail and a very nimble, delicate presentation (not sure why some say these Class A amps are “dark” or “slow”.)

@ryder, the Steve Huff comparison is between a Class A amp (Luxman) and a Class A/B amp (Pass). Perhaps the detail of the Luxman is a function of it being Class A?

Ryder man, stating the obvious. The op asked a question about Pass house sound. I responded in an effort to help. Ease up on the judgement please.