I for one do not buy the "custom made" hype. IMO it is like "limited edition", which in my book means "limited to the number we can sell". :)
Showing 17 responses by nvp
Hi Classact, it looks like the upgrade and Accuphase bugs have bitten you well, viz. less than a year ago you were contemplating whether to buy an Accuphase or a Musical Fidelity integrated, and now you are thinking to go after the Accuphase top of the line pre-aplifier. While I do not have experience with either pre-amp, I advise you to proceed with care and patience. I know you have ProAc Response K6 speakers and you were planing to buy an Accuphase A-46 power amp. IMO none of the two is no where near the league of the C-3800 pre-amp. Consequently, the price difference between the C-2820 and C-3800 might be better spent in another direction, e.g. buy an A-65 instead of an A-46, or use it to partially cove the price of a good Accuphase digital source. I would also not dismiss just yet the Accuphase solid state power amps, e.g. the P-6100, P-7100 or the evolution of P-7100 (which should be release in the very near future). Given the amounts involved I would not take a decision before doing the following comparisons: 1) A-46 & C-2420 vs. A-46 & C-2820 2) A-46 & C-2820 vs. A-65 & C-2820 3) A-65 & C-2820 vs. A-65 & C-3800 Oce you have settled on a pre-amp also compare the A-46, A-65 and P-6100 power amps. (Of course, you should use your speakers when make any of these test.) Dfwmediagroup, maybe you could shad some more light on the differences between the power amps I have mentioned above. You seems to be a deal so probably you have much more experience with these amps than me. Good luck and keep us posted. Paul |
Bvdiman, unlike most of the old Accuphase power amps, the new amps (i.e. including the A-46 amp) have two sets of speaker terminals and therefore also on/off buttons (on the front panel) for each set. Also Bvdiman, would you care to share with us your thoughts on FM Acoustic vs. Accuphase electronics. Dave, who also posted here is interesting in buying one of these two brands. (Since there are not that many posts and/or contributors to this thread, I hope Classact will not mine this "distraction".) Classact, interesting to hear that you have found the A-46 to be better than the P-6100 amp. What preamp have you used for this comparison? |
Hi Bvdiman, I have just seen on your system page that you have bough a pair of A-100 mono blocks and also the DP-900/DC-901 SACD player. Congratulations! (In my first post to you here, I was not aware of this and I was actually wondering why are you interested in Accuphase - I knew that you are a FM Acoustics owner. I will follow your system page with interest for a Accuphase vs. FM Acustics comparison.) Dave, it seems to me that compare to the FM Acoustics prices, the Accuphase prices (at least of the components in which the two of us are interested) are peanuts money. :) Classact, I find it interesting that you have preferred the A-46 amp over the P-6100 amp. My impression was that the P-6100 is better than my A-45 amp, while, on the other hand, I have found the A-45 and the A-45 comparable. Beside more "features", the A-46 also has more "drive", i.e. more power, than the A-45 (but more power is something that I simply do not need with my current speakers.) |
Audiozen, I do not agree with what you are saying. Firstly, with Accuphase (and any serious manufactures for that matter) there are no quantum leaps in performance from one generation to the other. The new generation is most often "only" a fine tuned version of the previous one. Sometimes this is for the better other times is not. In my experience, to talk about significant advancements in Accuphase products one has to compare products that are at least two generations apart. Secondly, in the hope of selling a C-2820 any dealer will tell you any kind of crap, e.g. last time we talk about Accuphase preamps you said that Arturo from Axiss told you that the C-2820 puts out 98% of the performance of C-3800. Now he things it is only 90% thereĀ
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Audiozen, First, I have actually read the user manuals of the C-2810 and C-2820 (also of C-2800) pre-amps, and also compared the guts of these pre-amps based on what it is written in the manuals. The three pre-amps are part of the same family and share very similar circuits layout and circuit boards. However, unlike you, I know that teflon is - a polymer made of fluoro-carbon. (Teflon is also known as PTFE, i.e. polytetrafluoroethylene.) Now if you read the manuals of the older Accuphase premium preamps, e.g. C-2800 and C-290V, you will learn that Accuphase is using flouro-carbon resin (sometimes referred in the manual as "flourocarbon" resin other times as teflon) for its circuit boards since 1999. Thus, not such a new thing! Second, Japan is the most important market for Accuphase. They sell more than 50 percent of their production locally! The second largest market for Accuphase is Germany, and chances are that USA represent a very small (if not insignificant) percent of the Accuphase market. Since in Japan the C-3800 is only 50 percent more expensive than the C-2820, I am very sure Accuphase sells enough C-3800 in Japan, and that it is not at all worried by the low numbers of C-3800 sold in USA. In fact, if you would know anything about Accuphase (e.g. how arrogant and pride their owners are, or the fact that the important Accuphase international distributors are chosen among relatives of the Accuphase owners) you would not for a second claim that Accuphase dumped they top of the line technology into the C-2820 preamp just because the C-3800 was too expensive to be sold in USA. That is dealer talk! Third, unlike you, I find it silly to express my opinions here when I do not have first hand experience with a product. (A year ago you told me and Dave that the C-2820 gives 98% of the performance of C-3800 but admitted that you have never listen the C-2810 and the C-2820; now after you have apparently listened the C-2810, you say that the C-2820 gives only 90% of the performance of C-3800. How do you come up with these numbers?). Moreover, I find it very wrong to give advice to somebody based on what you were told by your dealer, or on experience gain only by reading reviews and/or user manuals (which you obviously do not fully understand)! |
I have never said the C-2820 is a minor update over the C-2810. Only that the difference between them can not be qualified as a quantum leap. (The C- 2800, C-2810 and C-2820 pre-amps belong to the same family and the differences between them are incremental.) You on the other hand have listed circuit boards made of fluorocarbon resin as one of the important advancements in C-2820 over C-2810. As I've mentioned, you have no point. Both have circuits boards of fluorocarbon. It is certainly not the first time I see you giving advices that are silly and/or incorrect. Instead of continuing to argue with you or to expose your ignorance. I will let the readers figure out for themselves how trustable you really are by inviting them to glance at two of your previous threads: World's best Pre-amp for $10K and above? PMC vs. Salk Sound Speakers. Which is better? |
Audiozen, do not worry about typos we all type in hurry. (Plus English is not my first language, so I do not always pick up on them and often make many myself.) Now, my knowledge of circuit boards is certainly limited, but it does not come from internet browsing and/or hi-end dealers. That is, I am a physicist doing research in university for more than 10 years now, who in his last year of university has taken a course on advance physics lab techniques that have applications in industry, e.g. chemical vapor deposition (CVB), laser lithography (LL), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and a few more others. Since I caught this hi-fi bug, I have returned quite a few time to those lecture notes. Regarding printed circuit boards (PCB), the lectures about LL mentioned two thing that are of interest here: 1) that when it comes to printed circuit boards teflon (i.e. fluorocarbon) is considered an exotic material (which while expensive yields very good dielectric constants and dissipation factors), and 2) that most often the substrate is not pure teflon (i.e. fluorocarbon) but it uses glass cloth and fluorocarbon resin. I have no doubt that there are very expensive teflon PCBs and extremely expensive teflon PCBs. It may be possible that, unlike in the C-2810 where they used expensive PCBs, in the C-2820 Accuphase went for extremely expensive PCBs. However, one can not pick that up from the way the terms "teflon", "fluorocarbon resin" and "glass cloth fluorocarbon resin" are used in the Accuphase brochures and/or by Accuphase dealers. IMO it is more important to realize that we talk about very small returns here as these techniques deal with 2nd and 3rd order effects. The weak point of most C- 2820 and C-3800 owners (also C-2810 for that matter) is the room which induces zero order effects, i.e. 100 to 1000 times larger than what it is gain by using exotic material for the circuit boards. According to Accuphase the most important advancement in C-2820 is further refined AAVA volume control which was derived from the C-3800. I must admit that I find this claim by Accuphase intriguing. In the C-3800 pre- amp, the AAVA circuit is design as a balanced network, which IMO does not seem to be the case in the C-2820. (The schematics in the C-3800 manual clearly show a balanced AAVA, whereas the schematics in the C-2820 manual show a design that is not balanced and that is very similar to the one in C- 2810). What I would say that the C-2820 borrows from the C-3800, is the superior power supplies but with less caps. (The C-2810 seems to have the transformers developed for the older C-2800 model). This should make it more dynamic than the C-2810. Though, ultimately this will depend sensitively on the power amp and the speakers that are used. Here comes my take on this matter, or what I call dealer's talk vs. the "poor's man" talk, i.e. me. The difference between the C-2810 and C-2820 is roughly 10K and the difference between the C-2820 and the C- 3800 is also about 10K (at least in Europe). The dealers, will always tell one that a C-2410 is almost a C-2810, that a C-2420 is almost a C-2820 or that a C-2820 is almost a C-3800. Whereas I would tell anyone to take the 10K difference, to do some bargaining with the dealer and to get a DG-48 room correction system together with a "smaller" preamp. A C-2810 + DG-48 will yield better results than a C-2820, or a C-2820 + DDG-48 will yield better results than a C-3800. As mentioned, the room affects the sound significantly and the Accuphase DG-48 (also DG-38) do a marvelous job at correcting this. In the end, I should maybe apologies to the rest of the contributors here for "brutally" attacking Audiozen and going way off topic in my debate with him. I wrote my posts yesterday after reading Audiozen's thread above on PMC vs. Salk speakers. I lost my patience with him when I read that he never listen the C-2820 (as I also remembered some of his other posts and my previous encounters with him here on Audiogon). I will be glad to hear Audiozen's opinions on the AAVA volume control in C- 2820 vs. the on in C-3800. Not as a preach but as a constructive discussion. Paul |
Audiozen, sorry for my very late reply. I too am glad the spirits have calmed down. Communication between people (both verbal and in writing) is a difficult thing. Debates like this often happen between passionate individuals. :) Even though sometimes I disagree with you conclusions and/or approach, I certainly respect the fact that your opinions are based on personal research (which sometimes seems to be quite involved, e.g. your thread WHEN DID DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY BEGIN?). Coming back to the C-2810, C-2820 and C-3800 pre-amps, I still believe that, unlike the C-3800, the C-28XX models do not have a balance AAVA volume control. Since I did not do a direct comparison of these products, and also because of a very recent experience (read my next post), I will refrain to make further speculations. |
Labo, congratulation for the new C-2820 pre-amp and thanks for sharing your experience with us. I should say that what you have reported (i.e. the C- 2820 being much better than the C-2410) is very much in line with my recent experience. I have recently bought an A-65 power amp - mostly because it had a very decent price and also because I was hopping to end the search for a power amp. Since my A-45 amp has much more power than my 104 dB Avantgarde speakers need, I did not expected a significant difference. However, I have quickly realize that my assumptions were incorrect. Compared to the A-45, the A-65 has: 1) a much more relaxed, controlled and fuller presentation of the bass, and 2) a more stable and better defined stereo image and sound stage. The A-65 also retrieves more details than the A-45. I should also say that I have found the A-45 & C-2410 & DP-600 combo to sound slightly inferior (but overall comparable) to the A-65 + DP-600 combo, i.e. the C-2410 pre-amp is bypassed and the signal of the DP-600 cd player is fed directly into the power amp. On the other hand, I have preferred the A- 65 & C-2410 & DP-600 combo over the A-65 + DP-600 combo. Dave, it's good to hear you are reconsidering Accuphase. |
Bvdiman, please report back after you have tried the Accuphase PS units. I am very interested to hear your findings. Renjy651, the A-46 power amp has two Nichicon capacitors of 47k micro Farads each. Also, they are 85 Celsius degrees not 105. What you have quoted resembles the specs of the A-65 power amp which has 82k micro Farads caps. The A-65 probably has 105 Celsius degrees caps as it gets much much hotter than the A-45. However, I am not 100 percent sure about this as the picture of the caps in the manual is poor and this figure can not be read properly. I currently have both the A-45 and A-65 in my system. As far as I know the A-46 is a bit more powerful than the A-45, but overall the two amps are comparable. On the other hand, the difference between the A-45 and the A-65 is huge. Since a pre-amp might not be needed with the A-65 (read my last post before this one for some more details), I urge anyone who is planing to buy a A-46 to also listen the A-65. |
Dave, what I meant to say is that because the C-2420 & A-46 combo is a bit more expensive than a A-65 one might want to consider the second alternative if he/she has a single source, i.e. a cd player with a good volume control. Of course, the A-46 amp is a very good amp and it will please the vast majority of audio-files. Bvdiman, did you try to bypass your FM Acoustics pre-amp and feed the signal from the DC-900/DP-901 player directly into the the A-200 amps (the DC- 900/DP-901 has a built in volume control)? I am curious what the result would be as I am having a bit of a dilemma right now, i.e. sell my C-2410/A-45/DP-600 and get a DP-800/DP-801 or sell the A-45/C-2410 and get a better Accuphase preamp (e.g. C-2810 or C-2820). |
Hi Dave, too bad you are not living close to Amsterdam. I'll be happy to demonstrate the A-65 vs. A-45 amps for you. :) Hi Bvdiman. Thanks for your answer. I am thinking quite seriously to buy a 801/800 but I will need to sell my A-45 and DP-600 first. I'll keep my C-2410 pre-amp for the time being, as I use quite often its balance control button. The 900/901 is certainly a no-go as here it is 2 times more expensive than the 801/800 combo. Regarding the DG-38 unit, I still use it. In fact, I can not recommend this unit enough. Its room correction function should be mandatory to any serious system. |
Dave, it is hard to say which choice will yield the best result. Since you buy them form a dealer, can't you do a test?If he is not willing to come over with the units, maybe you can take your speaker to his show room. Nonetheless, my advice will be to get the A-65, but only because it will finalize the search for an amp. Bvdiman, thanks for the additional info regarding the "pre vs. no pre" issue. I am certainly not surprised to hear that the sound is better when using your pre-amp. After all you use one of the most expensive pre-amps available. It would have been terrible if things where different. :) Regarding the pre vs. cd player upgrade, it will be much more expensive to upgrade my pre-amp than to buy a DP-800/DC-801 combo. However, while looking at Finite Elemente rack that could accommodate all these Accuphase boxes, I have realized that I actually do not have enough space in my room for such a rack. So, I need to solve this problem first. Regarding the HS-link cable, I have stumbled on another forum (I've forgotten where) on a thread where you have talked about the top of the line Audioquest network cable and its benefits. I did not play at all with cables so far. The reason is that I am of the opinion that cables are for fine tuning a system with which one is completely happy. Regarding my cables, initially I have used some Audioquest balanced cables (a middle range model, I have forgotten which one). Now I am using two normal but short internet cables as these sounded better than the Audioquests. Once I've settled for a "final" player, I will certainly experiment with cables. Beside Audioquest Diamond, what else do you recommend? |