Building the Audio Note Kit 1 SET amp...

Careful Rebbi, that's the signpost up ahead, you could soon be entering the "Tweak-light" Zone, where ordinary things don't happen very often.

++Grannyring. You don't want to take a risk of damaging anything expensive until you are confident all is and will likely remain as it should be.

Mik.

TEktons might well be the ticket. DEfinitely high value and a reasonable fit it would seem for most any case. Plus not much risk to try. I would consider those myself. On paper. the Coincident just seems to be designed specifically for the task at hand, which is a good omen for good performance at least up front, but there is more to it than that. One must listen to know. Does Coincident offer a home trial/satisfaction guarantee? That would certainly help.

Reb, I think you have all the relevant info available to decide. Some more detailed impedance/phase info on specific Tektons would be useful but not needed to save some money perhaps. Or go with what seems best on paper for more. Or try something else. The balls in your court to decide at this point I think. What you have ain't so bad for now it seems so take your time.

Rebbi, you certainly know how to execute a "cliffhanger". :^)

Everyone is tuned in waiting to hear how this turns out.

WHo shot JR?

Hi Reb.

Thanks for the update. I'm sure you'll get it squared away.

One thing I recall from kit building days when something was not quite right was to check all solder connections to circuit boards for unintentional shorts.

Of corse there is always the chance of a defective part or one not fully up to spec.

Sounds like an is taking good care of you and I know you are patient so the force should be with you.

✊

I tend to agree with Grannyring in terms of relative importance of things.

The thing is, in a smaller room in particular there are many ways to skin the cat. So one can start with a low power amp and build around that more reliably in that there will be many choices for speakers. BUT, to get to the "end game" on teh grand scale of things,what you give up in terms of speaker power for other reasons has to be made up somewhere. The speakers needed to accomplish the ultimate sound as opposed to a compromised one in some cases at least will likely cost more. SO there is no free lunch, other than that it is always easier to produce good sound on a smaller scale than a larger one, ie in a smaller room than a larger one. I have seen some end up with SET amps and 100DB+ full range horns that are both big and expensive in order to achieve that ultimate sound, even in modest quarters.

So again, like usual, it all depends. No single right answer.

Mil I read a few things on the Tektons and lore specifically but did not see any impedance or phase charts. Can you provide a link?

One other thing that might be useful to know is the output impedance of the AN amp. I'm asuming it is fairly high being a SET but do not know for sure. The higher that is the greater the chance that impedance swings in the speaker, even if not problematic, will affect the tonality of the results. Impedance curve info would then provide a clue in regards to how that tonality is likely to balance out prior to actual hearing. its at least a systematic approach to help predict the results beforehand. Flat impedance curve > 8ohm definitley suggests a design intended for SET. But of course a robust design alone does not assure one will like the sound, but it is at minimum an indicator of good performance together which is a good starting point.

There is always the proven option of waiting to buy used and not overpaying and selling if needed to move on. It might be nice to keep two pair around at a time to compare at home, even for just a short period if financially feasible.

The technology is just a means to the end which is to make good sounding music. What sounds good, or more so best, is always a matter of personal opinion. Different technologies provide a different set (no pun) of tools to achieve ones goals. Teh goals will determine the best way to get there.

I have only heard one SET (i think it was a set, very pricey audio notes as I recall) that sounded perfect to me on a larger scale. That was a six digit system at a show. The large custom horns involved alone were well over 6 digits.

It goes against my engineeering acumen to think that older technology can systematically beat newer technology. Maybe in some cases, but technology moves on beyond just refinements to old solution to radically different ones. Which is better? Who knows? I can only be certain that technology moves forward at light speed as evidenced all around. Is making good sound so much more of a challenge? I do not see it. Its an abstract argument I know but I think a valid one in general.

I wonder how OTL tube amps like Atmasphere for example would do with the Decapos.

One thing about tube amps for sure is that I do not think I have ever heard two that sounded exactly the same, even with the same architecture.

Interesting thread Here on the topic of OTL and push/pull.

Reb I am tempted to just send you my triangle Titus xl speakers. They might be all you need I your room the fit the bill in our sunroom as seen in my system pic. I have a vision of running them off a set or similar tube amp someday.

Anyone ever heard these on a set that could comment?

In rebbi's case I think he has to keep the SET and find teh right speakers. After all, he built the amp. Its his personal creation.

The Refs are nice but you can always buy a new pair of good speakers.

Then again this amp is famous by now. You might be able to sell it for a profit to help finance the next phase! :^)

"The right SS amp in the right total system can indeed sound very much
like a good SET amp system. It it the complete combination. The amp is but
one piece"

I'm glad to hear someone else believes this too as well as me. If I am whacked, at least I am not alone.

Yep, that connection and sense of accomplishment would seem to be the irreplaceable part of the equation at this time.

Lots of nice suitable fish er I mean speakers in the sea....

Charles I'll agree with that. Its hard to make exactly the same tasting soup when significantly different ingredients are used. But a good chef might get pretty close. And each chef will likely think their way is better.

Knowledgeable DIY'ers can put bought high end audio to shame. I've seen and heard it with my own ears at Capital Audiofest a couple years back. I'm surprised they let those guys in. They made many the big ticket vendors look silly.

It is funny to me that only insane audiophiles like us could get so bent out of shape over less than stellar bass with some pop music recordings. My system rules with that kind of sound. It would drive me nuts to lose the ability to deliver it properly. If I didn't know better I would not care. Ignorance can be bliss!😯

Always avoid clipping even if subtle.

How hard it will be to find new speakers and how much will largely depend on how much bass extension is needed. If not full range it won't be hard or expensive.

i'd be willing to bet a sub or two would resolve the problem.

Not only resolve it but allow the set to do what it does best even better . Offload the power hungry lowest octave or so and you can have it all for reasonable cost. It's a no brainet for me to eliminate the problem and grt the most out of what he has

Tube you are right of course. I recall going through the risks with reb beforehand. We were all hoping for the best but knew the risks. So no toap surprise i suspect. One just has to complete the journey. Often one big move calls for followups before all is well. Powered subs blended well will add cost but resolve the problem and retain and likely even improve further the good things currently heard. Changing speakers runs the risk of additional trial and error until the right ones are found. Chances are they will not sound just like decapos but maybe even better once overall good karma happens

These kinds of problems is what makes this stuff fun as long as one has patience and proper financing. :^]

With subs its up to the buyer to do the integration to their satisfaction. It takes some time and discipline but is doable usually. Ive done it to my satisfaction in the past but it required a lot of focus and a clear goal it can be done by ear or with help of tools designed for the task. Rebbi built his own amp so i suspect he would get it done well. Its just audio though not life and death. Lots of ways to skin the cat.

reb triangle speakers are worth the look. Similar design concept with the crossover to ref3a at least in some models similar to mine not expensive very refined and possibly efficient enough for real to get you over that hump

My understanding is the audio notes rely on corner placement to reinforce the bass similar to a horn effect which makes them more amenable for tube amplification in general. I heard a pair not sure how fancy at capital audio fest a few years back. Off some tube amp I do not recall and they were one of the better sounds at the show I thought.

My understanding is the audio notes rely on corner placement to reinforce the bass similar to a horn effect which makes them more amenable for tube amplification in general. I heard a pair bot sure how fancy at capital audio fest a few years back. Off some tube amp I do not recall and they were one of the better sounds at the show I thought.

mik have you heard each Teuton model with a low power set? Some Teutons extend lower than others I read. I have no doubt those that extend only to 50hz or so would have much problem but I am less certain about those that extend into the 30 hz range. A lot more power is needed for those lower frequencies than down to only 50 or so. Efficiency ratings might not reflect the lowest frequencies as Reb suspects is the case with the decapos. Just wondering. I would be concerned myself going in with any low power amp and moderate efficiency speakers that are not big but extended

The who comment resonated with me. Zu's I heard demoed similar to Tecton did not deliver with Rush on a set. The zu admitted the set was underpowered for the task after the fact. He was demoing with classical and jazz fair that was better suited and that sounded fine. Many with sets likely do not care about that kind of music much. Ie music that relies more on power and impact than beauty to make its point. These were larger more full range zu speakers though. Smaller less extended models of moderate efficiency will be less challenged. Will they sound best on all kinds of music? Very good maybe but not best. It's all about choosing your compromise in many cases.

If I were Reb I'd audition the Tektons. Little to,lose to try. Milk I was referring to Tektons not Teutons. That was my iPad spell checker doing the wrong thing. 😬😬😬

Yep limited dynamics prior to clipping is exactly what I am talking about regarding set demos that sounded ok but not great. It is like having a Ferrari and never topping 60 mph. That's the trade off I see repeatedly with just a few watts except with very high efficiency horns capable of picking up the slack.

It's about power and glory in music as opposed to beauty. I want it all!

Tube amps do soft clip which will limit the dynamics well before any clear distortion is heard. Soft clipping works well to preserve the beauty in music but also limits the impact and glory while still letting the music play. Great for acoustic music. Bad for electronica. IMHO.

The good news is Rebs room is small so full range speakers are likely not needed. The set would do very well with all kinds of music in there I bet if the speakers do not do much below 50 ha or so.

I was reading about the Tektons lore. Seems like a great value speaker worth a try. Little to lose trying. I think it has a good chance of fitting the bill for Rebbi. Of course fitting the bill and loving the sound are not the same. No way to know without trying. On paper I see no reason not to. The design using good quality tweeter. Large 10". Pro audio bass driver larger box and simple crossover checks all the boxes for me. As does the asking price. Interestingly the designer expresses his preference for high power amps still but seemingly should not be required if one is a tube amp lover.

I agree a great amp can only be great if not "breaking a sweat".
My 500 w/ch bel canto amps were acquired mainly for my large ohm f5 speakers in my larger room. I dabbled with various lower power amps for awhile. These are the ones that handle the job effortlessly and the music reflects that. I also run the other smaller less demanding speakers in various rooms concurrently of the same amps. They are overkill perhaps for all the rest but prefer to think of that as my insurance policy. All my speakers get driven to their max. Including the small more tube amp friendly triangles. These always excel at lower to moderate volume and that is the case these days more than ever. I would like to do the tube amp experiment with those someday not that I feel the need but as an experiment. In that I have heard many tube systems including a few sets but never owned one plus I find all the various technologies fascinating...different recipes for a favorite dish in essence. But you can never tell what a pair of speakers are capable of until they are driven effortlessly to their max. The same might be said for an amp as well I suppose if one prefers to look at it that way.

Quality is more important but a quality amp alone cannot make any music. Lots of factors contribute to results including personal preferences which are usually what determines quality to that person.

The numbers would seem to indicate that ss must be doing something right. Go figure! 😉

The it's worth noting the beyond the clipping issue the high output impedance of a set makes it more susceptible to impedance swings. To get the best performance in terms of tonality you must have higher impedance speakers. Has anyone seen an impedance curve for Tekton? An 8 ohm rating is a good start but not the whole story. Speakers truly designed for sets tend to have impedances that are more continuously higher above 8 ohm I think. Coincidents are a good example. The key in terms of clipping though is to not have low impedance at the lower frequencies.

Another key thing with a set is that it distorts with second order harmonics which are not unpleasant to the ear. It also operates mainly in class a which is known to have certain sonic benefits compared to class b. Class d is a totally different beast to compare.

Ss amps have their own set (no pun) of sins but I'm not sure there is any basis to say that a set amp is inherently of any higher quality than any other. It all depends on ones criteria for determine quality I suppose. And of corse quality varies widely within any amplifier category.

Reb the coincident triumph extreme 2 monitors appear to be in your price range. Have you seen those?

Reb if it were me and I wanted to take my best shot to hit the bullseye now on paper I'd have to splurge for the co incidents. Screw the matching stands that's mostly aesthetics. They are designed to work with an amp like yours and should fit your room nicely. If it does not happen with those and your amp then either time to move on again to another approach. It should be the perfect match. On paper at least. Tektons will probably resolve your clipping issue and sound good and preserve some funds but I would want to see more impedance and phase info before I would be confident that the mating is truly as good as it might be.

It is harder to achieve quality on a larger scale than a small one no doubt.

My system is designed around the speakers which require quality on a somewhat larger scale. I've found a good modern class d amp to be a game changer in regards to accomplishing that. It is very efficient and very green. I cant find a fault with the performance. What it sounds like depends mostly on what it is fed.

I'd like to hear that combo. 😻

Reb,

One thing worth noting is that often when a significant change is made we focus on what we hear that we did not before. how about what we heard before that we no longer hear? I suspect that once one hits a certain level of sound performance the differences may be largely what is emphasized now whereas other things were before.

Just something worth thinking about.

Regarding Coincident speakers, I will say that most of what I read about their design and specs comes from teh vendor, not an independant source doing measurements, etc. So that is another fact worth considering that in the end may or may not mean anything.

In the end, after considering all the facts, you just have to go with your gut on these things and make a call.

Its likely going to sound really good no matter what at this point.

Reb,

I didn't say it clearly but what what I meant is what is emphasized more or less in specific recordings. Specific things like you mention that you hear now and did not before, or vice versa.

The grip on the bass thing does not surprise me and is a valid thing to compare but its what effect does that and other technical differences actually have on specific recordings.

For example I have multiple amps speakers and systems. I know which one performs and sounds best in general to me, but I also know I hear different things in each case. Each system has its own unique biases that may be subtle or more. We realize what we hear currently that we like a lot faster than anything else that might be different. It usually takes time to get ones ears around everything, hence the common practice of making one change at a time and giving it some time to sink in.

Charles, I agree with you 100%. I am happy for everyone who enjoys what they are doing.

On the other hand, that alone does little to help someone work through their issues. That requires open discussion and not being afraid to make suggestions in good faith.

When the issues are all resolved, then there will be nothing much left to talk about here save good wishes.

I am very fickle with these things. On one hand the engineer in me wants to dissect every technical detail and apply those accordingly. On the other hand the other part of me says this ain't that hard just try some different things until you find what works. Its a dilemma. You often have to pul at things from both sides in order to cover all the bases properly. There is a term for this called the "strategy elastic" that companies apply in order to move in the right direction strategically despite there often being no single correct answer to issues in many cases.

Another class d fanboy here. 👍👍

Those Coincidents are small and likely not extended in the bass, which is a good thing for a SET with small speakers. It still might be enough for a small room, depending on expectations. If expectations are to have it all, you could very well end up with a sub in any case in lieu of larger more expensive very high efficiency horns or something along those lines. Just more food for thought. You might not like the idea of adding complexity with a sub, but that price you pay might be small in relation to the benefits of cutting to the chase faster and doing it with the stuff you already like a lot making most of the music.

It wouldn't hurt to pick up a sub used somewhere locally and try. If it does not work, you can sell, loose nothing and be no worse off than currently.

Powered subs are almost always the least expensive way to have it all when needed, with most any speakers or amps. If you can build an amp kit, I suspect you will be able to get the sub mixed in adequately in a reasonably short period of time. I've done it. It can be no more complicated than trial and error with various settings and placements while listening to various reference recordings along teh way. Kinda fun in its own way, just like building the kit. Plus you have the ability to tweak as needed without replacing. Not too shabby!

Bass will ALWAYS be the achilles heel of a low power amp (and/or smaller speakers, especially more efficient ones in genral). Powered subs let you address the issue once and for all without having to change the rest. Its the most practical solution if you are already liking what you hear and just want to address the power for the bass issue. If the amp is clipping and distorting audibly on some tracks, and teh bass is not as tight and articulate as it might be otherwise, there may be other more subtle negative effects at play as well as a result of asking too much of the amp. If you ask less of it and let it do what it does best more effortlessly, you should be sitting about as possible.

Sitting about as pretty as possible, that is.

Reb on the other thread you were asking about single driver speakers. There is always that option. Could work out. It has for some others in these parts. I always find the ones horn loaded for the bass to be interesting. Then there are the Tonians. I've heard good things about those as well and I like the concept. I've always regarded certain Klipsch as a viable option as well for a low power tube amp someday.