Blindfold Speaker testing

Some speakers don't sound their best from behind curtains.

You are joking, right. ya gotta be jokin

tomic6018,315 posts06-24-2021 9:46pmI think it’s a design of experiment sobriety test… how about we blindfold test between 6 pairs of vixatives, or whatever…

Yeah We could do some AER's, and Vox's Neo magnets + their Field Coils,, 
back in the 70's we had a  local shop which had a  room packed with speakers, 
i chose the 
Philips 2 way, High Fidelity, Wsh I had gone with the 3 way. 
Next to the Thors they sounded anemic,. 
The Thors sounded anemic next to various cheap chinese *full range/point source*,,and so its likea  shootout, Last speaker standing wins.
Yeah WE could do that. 
We test, judge and kick out the losers, til we get down to the final shootout. 
We all have to come to a consenus. 
Midrange, testing based only on midrange fq.s not bass, nor highs. 
I can get high fidelity in those fq's with no problem, Lots of good choices.
Its the midrange we are judging. 
If you look at the  fq chart for the Vox, its flat and no harsh  peaks and valleys. 
= You get all the music, with no distortion, 
Troels stays busy trying to tame the midrange with all sorts of xover components
YUCKKKK, 
can't stand xovers in midrange,. 
I am not going to purcahse the Vox for bass/highs, 
If they are there, well its a bonus. I am employing the high sens only for midrange, 1200hz=-10k.
From what I've read this area is where this driver really shines. 
So finally my dream sound is not long off, 
Been searching some 40 years. 
Its was only last year that i was made aware of what these Point Source are all about. 
The Ebay seller wrote back on one of my many Q's
**ohh no my speakers are not copies of Fostex or Lowther, we are cloning The Voxativ*. 
huh?
Whats that?
He went on to say, *My Top speaker is like 80% what a Vox is**,,, I thought,, no must be at least 90%*. Its most likely 80%, , china can  not copy that technology.  Sure  his top line are  only $500, so if your budget is tight, its  good deal. 
But its not what I am after. 
I am looking for The Real Deal. 

Again, an individual's central and peripheral auditory system is the largest variable in any such test

My tech geek believes audiophiles at least most, need their hearing tested, 
It was only when I had the Seas Millennium tweet on one channel a  point source on the other channel, fliped back and forth did I make the realiztion dome tweeters are dinasuars, 
The Millennium completely totally rolls off the highs,  so whats left are the mids, which sound like a  wet blanket has been thrown over the speaker.

No one really knows just how bad their speakers perform/sound until they compare them to a  quality high sensitivity speaker. 
Til then   we all think the world of our speakers. 
Troel's speakers, being the worlds best, can't match a  single high sens driver, not from say 1khz-12khz. 
As I say I have no expectations a  high sens single driver will be the Be All End All. 
I already have bass and tweeter. 
I only need the most critical driver, midrange. 
The only driver that I know which exists that can voice high fidelty for full orchestra is a  high sens Full Range, 
This has been my mantra past 6 months. 
Each day this realiztion becomes more clear and focused.
If the new tech is avaliable at a  very affordable price where anyone is able to access.
Why reject it?? 
Makes no sense.
I've been searching off/on past 40 years for a  high fidelity speaker. 
And finally  my research has paid off.
If you don't seek, you'll never find. 
Its just not going to drop out the sky. 
And I should thank a few here , mentioning the new Full Range drivers. 
This design is not popular here On Audiogon, I accept that. 
As to the whys, I have no clue.
Old dogs can't learn new tricks. 

Look go read all the raves on the Vox, AER, You can not find even 1 miniscule complaint of these speakers, except the price. 
Whereas how long/ how much has  the xover things been hyped these past decades.
And you know exactly what I am talking about.
I once thought the world of my Seas Thors,
Often I stated the Millennium was indeed the finest tweeter in the world. 
Then came along these various cheap chinese FR things. 
Now dome tweeters were exposed for their weaknesses, blantant, obvious, hyped. 

Why are some of us so frightened of the OPs interesting challenge?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I understand that many old faithful audiophiles just can not let go the old xover/box designs. Its been a  part of our lives these past decades, its worked for me, so why the need to change. Trust me a  high sens new tech driver  will present music completely, totally different from what your past experiences have told you is *the right way, the only way* to isten to music.
I'v since jumped ship on xovers in midrange.
One you experienced a  full range in mids, you'll never want to go back to box things. 
FR speakers somehow threaten to turn their audiophile world upside down. 
Look  back in Chicago, 1929, some USA lab figured out  how to present music witha  Field Coil, which offer mids that surpass anything comming out of Seas and scanspeak's lab. 
All due to the higher sensitivty, Why should we  continue to ignore the old tech which was  indeed successful, but long negleced, and now has risen from the dead  in a  New 21st C technology???
Beats me  why the fear. 
Just embrace it. 

The volume level must be matched,

~~~~
Absoluetly not, Vol stays the same, See here is where xovers completely fall apart in mid section, a HUGE  fq section it is.
Sure it will bea  dead giveaway when a  higher FR sens driver comes in to play.
Everyone will know,,ok, speaker C and F were  the FR models .
THis is the point of the testing, to revedal the obvious weaknesses inherent in the xover things in the mid fq.s
A weakness I never want again in my system. 
The  cheap 4 incg FR I am now using in place of the Seas Millennium,  is close to acceptable. = Beat out  the finest tweeter from Seas. At  less than 1/3rd the price. 

No
The point of this excercise is to show how inefficient = read INEffective,,are the box xover things we all grew up with and is now longgg past time to leave those boom boxes behind.
Xovers will be shown, proved to be ~~flawed~ designs.

The very few Audiogon members who do  own AER and Vox are sitting on the sidelines, just reading these posts , and having a good laugh.
They well know what they have, which is a shame.
They ought to speak out as having owned neverly every loud speaker and now have settled on the high sens as their ultimate listening experience.
High sens owners are like a small closed niche, a Exclusive Club.
They pop in and make a few comments and pooof, gone .
For some reason they do not like to hang around here on Audiogon.
I guess they feel, why argue, why belabor the issue.
The xover group will never come over to FR and the High Sens will never ever go back to xovers.
And a wide gap separates the 2 camps forever.
There is no middle ground.

Look 
 High quality midrange has been around since the 1929  Field Coil, Colortura made in the USA, Chicago. 
I've not heard such pure midrange in any modern speaker.
Sure not all FC's  post this 1929 were as pure in midrange, 
All I am saying is  high quality midrange started as a  Field Coil and  now its  going full circle back to Field Coils. Back to where it all  began. 
In 20 years every speaker will be FC;s, 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqv5nOjLuw

music piece etc. that it is difficult to tell the difference.

Oh for sure, Some  retailers have the sound room so perfectly set up, you'd buy a  set of Bose.
Test cds make a  huge impression on the unsuspecting, room treatment, thick carpet, 
Its a  trap. 
It took sometime to get a  understanding in these cheap full range, At the 1st I loved brand X,,,well then onto to brand Y,,hummm, Y was superior, last I added a  david Louis, 4 inch, blew away the other 3 full range.
Now  I can hear the DL is OK, not worth any more than the $200 I paid, = You get what you pay for.
But surely these DL 4;s offer a (much) better sound stage than your average xover box thing. 
There is something about these full range technology which require no xover, that allows more of the music to pass effortlessly through the speaker.
xover things can not compete. 
I am quite sure the David Louis higher end speakers are even better, But I'm not interested in 2nd rate any longer. I am going for  The ~~top dawgs~
At this point , why settle for less?
Cost me about $500-$600  in the FR testing experiement.
With that completed, now i am fully convinced high sens/full range is the only speaker for my music. 
Will they beat out the Seas Excel in the bass? 
Can't say. 
Or the Magnoxov horn in the highs?
 
We have to keep experiementing til we find the ideal equation.
And we share our findings here. 
If there was a dome tweeter that made mids like the 1929 Colortura, I;'d have it in my system. 
Only a  high sens can reproduce these fine mids. 

Look there was a  time longgg agio when the Audiogoners were like into the latest/newest/best in its class components.
Things were different back then. 
Although I will say this forum has been heavily biased towards the box/xover things. 
My testimiony is those things are dinasuars.
This judgement is based on 40 yrs off/on interest in all things hifi audio. 
The final component to making my sysytem truly world class high fidelity is just months away, 
Would have been sooner had I not  made a  very poor decision to jump into a tube fliiping business. Buy low/sell higher. 
Lost $1200-$1500. 
+ The upgrades to the Thors set me  back $1200++. Some of this may be salvagable, as if the Vox do not put out bass that can surpass the W18E001's, well the Dual W18's will be the bass section. 

Any-hoot
If we  held a  ~~Guess the speaker~~~ audition, its my guess the 2 high sens would have stood out. And if we did a  2nd such Guess Test, with the big guns, 
speakers over $20k - $100k. 
WEll now we are into the big horn deals, (which are not wife friendly),,,and brought in the  the 2 labs making Feild Coils, my guess is they would place top in the Big Dawgs class. 
End results would be:
Shootout twix the top horns vs Field Coils, 
Big box/xover things will be shown clearly as *impaired, faulty imaging*.
Honestly.

If  we madea  survey of top 1000 audiogon members with this Q
Are you interested in Highs ens, Full Range speakerS?
1) NO, not at all
2) Somewhat
3) Yes
900 in #1
50 in #2
50 in #3
Fast forward 10 yrs from now, 2031
1 300 nah's
2 300 yes very interested
3 400 I already own a  pair
As the poet wrote so accurately
**The Times they are a  changin..*

millercarbon9,796 posts06-25-2021 7:14pmIn English, please?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You mean a  summation of  all I am trying to get across
1929 Colortura Field Coil, Most perfect mids
Klangfilm other FC came along. Some not so successful.
Now enter xovers. 
Inefficient, wet blankets
2015, enters in new high sens designs from 3 labs, 2 in Germany, 1 in Japan
Hardly made frontt page news.
Audiophiles fear what they do not understand.
Stuck in old ways, old beliefs.
As long as the $$  keep flowing into xover box things, FC may never become avaliable at a price we can all afford.
Plesae buy High Sens, this way you are helping the new 21st C speakers to become more avaliable at a  better price.
Translated. 
You are holding back technology  from  offering us more selection and a  better price.

I just wrote Tampa Audio show, sadly they canceled 2021, but in 2022 I suggested they invite  both AER and Vox at whatever cost,. = Will be the biggest draw/most popular rooms, 
Long lines could get unruly, Advised make a  sign up list, this way no one has to wait in long lines and fight to get ahead of the others. 
So 2022 is your chance to hear the big guns in high sens speakers. 

have attended. They were no more in demand than any other room. Just because you have lost your mind over them doesn’t mean everyone else will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted same time,
Thus I premonitioned your  opinions. 
You old timers can’t stop the Future from happening.

care to list the speakers youve had in the past?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More than I care tom remember.
YUCKKKY, Including Troel's designs

Look I really am only looking for comments from those members who have actually heard with their own ears a  high sens new high tech speaker, All others, read, but please withold your snidey smirks.
Go listen to one, THEN come back and a make a comment
Thanks
THe Hifi Guy

you have to be a troll to say such weird claims


Actually The Town crier. 
FR/High sens mids are completely totally opposites, \
Black N White, 
Either /OR, 
20 yrs ago i initiated a  Speaker Shootout at the OK Corral, 
Odd I recall, FR /High sens were hardly ever mentioned AND never ever completely explained.
Its like the dark ages, 500/800 Goth times, Where news takes years to travel, and when news does finally get to where its going, its all tistorted news. 
Here is the simple clear undenyable truth
Mids from a xover design  can not compete isa  spaeker shootout with a  high tech FR/High sens, 
Can't,
Trust me, if we made this comapre with the worlds best 3 top xover midarnge vs either Vox or AER, 
Your xover mids would fail the UNBIASED testing.
Where are you going to find honest fair judging critics????
Not that I know   of any,,Ohh Stereophile,,yeah, they always get it so accurate...
I am speaking pure musical zero distortion mids, 
there is no xover speaker ever that will stand the high sens testing. 
Trust me, I got 40 yrs listening. 
I know a  speaker when I hear one. 
I block the bass and highs when testing.
. Its only mids I am interested in. 

NEWS BREAK
Say my tech geek who has actually built the amps for 2 of his clients here in New Orleans,  designed for Field Coils,
Quote: **a FC does not do anything more than what a good Magnet (Neo) can do* 
OK no issue there. 
Of course the 2 FC's he has heard are not Vox.
OK so lets skip the FC for right now. 
Of course I have heard various cheap chinese *full Range*, and all beat out the Seas in  most areas. 
Trust me I don't need to acutally hear a  high quality FR/High Sens,. 
based on my 40 yrs exp , I know already what a speaker will sound like just by looking at the design, materials used, specs. 
I have zero doubt the finest mids in any speaker design in the world are those of AER and Voxativ. 
I have ~~40~~ years of knowledge and experience. 
Back in 1975 a friend and I gave thumbs up to the Electro Voice Alpha 1's  vs Macintosh massive 20++ speaker design. 
I've heard countless box designs. 
None have impressed me in mids like these cheap chinese junk , have. 
That said, they do have fatigue.
Which AER and Vox has none of. 
I've read the testimonies on both drivers. 
All agree these 2  labs have the highest fidelity in any speaker they have ever heard in their entire audiophile experience. 
Why would they lie? 
You folks are just resisting change, failing to embrace the new technology. 
Why the rejection?
I started the longest, at least one of the longest threads here on Agon, back in 2001ish, andNow some 20 yrs later I have found  the answer I've been looking for.
Full Range/High Sens, is EXACTLY the answer to my searching.
Clues here and there past months have paid off.
Spent hours and hours of reseach. 
And its paid off, ]
Big time.

using a low powered tube amplifier during your "blindfold test" for all the speakers being tested. That is after all what makes a FR speaker shine

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes it may bea  issue **all things being equal** as you point out , high sens really shine best with SET's. 
So indeed , we will need 2 amplifications. 
For good or bad, I plan to pair the high sens with the Defy7. 
Not sure how thats going to work out til its all set up.
maybe not a  match made in heaven, they'll just have to learn to get along. 
I will keep all posted on the results. 
Folks  who live in my  area are welcomed to have a listen. Sometime in Sept should be up and running. 
If you care to, bring your speakers.

Here is a example of bass response ina   high sens speaker, Of course I would never pay $$$$ for this speaker, when I can order the single driver and build my own design for alottt less.
The bass at 5:44 has my lil comp speakers rattling like a  SUB WOOFER and about to vibrate off the desk. 
Folks this bass is all you need = sub not needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrIa6Z2Akjg

The power of High sens drivers, WOW
My intent was to employ as a  midrange, but hey is the bass is there, out  comes the Seas dual W18E001/with gorgeous Mundor Supreme caps. 
One heck of a  shootout there, Single driver bass vs DUAL!!! W18E001's/Mundorf SESGO+ Supreme Silver.
Will keep you guys posted on that fast gun draw. 

murphythecat170 posts06-26-2021 9:22pm" Why the rejection?"
I’ll talk for myself. I have owned and heard some of the most reknowned wideband drivers ever built. I do agree they excel in the mids. but every wideband Ive ever had or heard, needed at the minimum a supertweeter for over 8khz and subs crossed quite high.
so while they are magic in the mids, they have no balls nor any super HF. Contrary to you, while I appreciate pure mids, not to the extent that ill accept to have the purest mids without enough bass.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now we are getting somewhere. 
Someone why has owned and is willing to offer his critique of the strengths and weaknesses of *wide band/FR/High sens silnger drivers*

~~~Excel in the mids~~~
As I've mentioned , my cd/LP collection is all classical. Thus my criterion that a  speaker voices midrange, from say,, 1khz-10khz with the highest possible fidelity. Picking up the subtle nuances spread throughout a  classical recording. 
Actually I can **almost** live with this cheap 4 inch chinese *wide band*, caveat here is ,  needs bass and a  high end 12k+ hz tweeter. 
The bass in the Seas W18's although sens is  low at 87, will work for my needs, =  cello section, kettle drums.
Highs,, well I can find some horn to take care of the 12k+ hz's.  
Its always beeen a  issue to find the midrange section that my classical music requires to note all the tinest nuances within a  full range orchestra. 
Upon experimenting with various cheap chinese single drivers,,seems this design holds the promise to present my classical music like it should be presented. 

This is the purpose of this topic. 
Midrange.
If we placea  curtain over vaious speakers, the higher sens, will come out ahead as most notable in the midrange.
As noted by lonemountain above, where he states **the higher esns will be noted  as a superior image vs the xover/low sens** I am paraphrasing his ideas. 

Again, if the bass is weak in the wide band which  is under consideration , I am prepared to keep the Seas W18E001's as bass.
If the 12K+ hz, I find are rolled off, , again, the Magnovox horn will work out. 

~IF~ the wide band that I am looking at, voices midrange 1K-10K with the fidelity I hope for/expect/demand,,,then  the reseach/testing will have paid off. 
Others may choose to follow my path, or at least consider some of my ideas  and go on their own project to a  **Frankenstein*.


 

larryi2,529 posts06-28-2021 11:14ammurphythecat,

YES! Using youtube to judge anything except, perhaps, appearance makes no sense at all. On top of that, making any kind of universal judgment based on anything less than extensive personal experience is also nonsense.

I agree with you that most wide range drivers are best used in multi-way systems. Such systems, done right, will retain the immediacy and great presence in the midrange while sounding fuller, smoother and more refined than most single driver systems. I think having the crossovers come into play well outside the heart of the midrange is a big help.

~~~~~~~~
YT allows at least a hint of what to expect. 

Ok
~~wide band are best used ina muti-way systems~~
I am prepared to employ the Seas W18's as bass, Magnovox horn for highs, both offering pretty good bass/highs. 

~~Great presence in the midrange~~~

This has been my quest for a  very long time, racking my brain hour after  hour on Seas web site to figure a   solution to voicing midrange , wtth depth, height, rich details..
My hunch after testing various cheap wide band, is that the higher end wide band seems to be the answer for vocing full symphony orchestra. 
I did speak witha  local tech geek today, he feels, its possible the single wide band may fall short of delivering full orchestar, = might fall apart under the load.
I did mention, there is not 1 YT vid should any wide band with a  performance of a  full orchestra symphony in full force. 
Will this single driver get all discombobalated/flustered in ~~crunch time~~??
All the YT uploads on wide band involve easy jazz, music which any speaker can pull off with some degree of success. 

Low string on a  cello = 65hz
There you have it, the 20hz-40hz, not really needed to voice full symphony orchestra.
Kettle drums, eh, , 40hz will be just fine.
All is shaping up to be my 1st time with a ~~real deal~~ high fidelity speaker. 
Now if I could just sell my Cayin cd17/Mundorf Caps = speakers ordered. 
Stay tuned  folks
The Hifi Guy

You know, I just cked out a  massive 3 way Edgar Horn system with 15 inch sub on Youtube, pity we did not get to hear it perform. Anyway, after watching the owner give his history of this massive 4 way *ultimate* FullEST range speaker, I got to thinking, of what requirements do I need to voice the music I listen to, classical. 
Much of my collection is chamber, solo instrument, small orchestra, all the way to full symphony sound stage.
This style of music  is not so dependent on sub fq's , nor super high hz's. 
Jazz, both light, and heavy swing full orchestra jazz, does present  different spectrums in the soundstage fq range. 
Plenty of drums, bass guitar, here the bass and tweeter will be pushed to demands  which a  *wide band* may not deliver to meet the satisfactions of the audiophile. 
I get that.
The *meat and potatoes* fq's  of classical music  fall  solid and heavy in the midrange hz's. 
It is this midrange hz's hich according to some reviews, where wide band single drivers really shine. 
My search for this *golden voice* of midrange may be finally over.
Only IF I can get the KT88 PP amplification to work with this higher sens wide band driver.
When I get the wide band, I will borrow 2 other amps from my local tech, his EL34 modded single mono blocks Dynaco mark4's, pair of EL34 each mono with a  single 12AU7 and another larger type pre tube, can't recall the number.
THe other amp will be his DIY 250 SET amp. 
 
As we all know the EL34 has this special character for voicing mids superior to the KT88, and ideal for high sens wide band drivers.
I will test with various styles of music, to see how these 3  tubes presents music in  each  style. 
Stay tuned.

That’s why when auditioning you bring your own music. And if you can’t hear anything different then the $10k interconnect has little to no difference. Enjoy ☺️


Yes agree, 
The olds of old, going to a show room all set perfectly, with the best sounding test cds, 
Blew us all away,,**yeah I'll  take a pair***
later on,,,hummm, lol,,,not really sure i like these speakers,,,hummm,,,lol
What we all should have done, was to bring our own speakers and shootout with the dealers speakers..
This way we can compare how the the promo speaker really sounds, 
HYped, pumped up,,, we will hear  more clearly.
I am wide band fan. . Can;t be any other speaker. 
For me, wide band sound is *thinking outside the box*
*Opening the cages and letting the doves fly free*

All I am trying to get across is the idea
High sens wide band 
sound completely, totally different voicing 
vs
xover designs.
Thats all I am saying here.
Line up 10 xover and 1 wide band. 
Anyone with even a  moderate sensibility to  audiophile  quality spaekers, will be able to detect which of the 1  speakes is the wide band/high sensitivity. 
That is my point. 
I am not at all saying the 10 xover designs are not audiophile quality, just saying the voicing is completely different in the midrange, 1500khz - 6k hz