Peterayer..I have heard the Hegel P-30 and the H-30 mono-blocs hooked up to a pair of Amphion Argon7-L speakers. Stunning..rich..full..warm..very organic..very tight with outstanding bass. Have you noticed how different solid state Pre-amps sound bright, some with loose bass, muddy midrange, lack of 3D dimensional space? Heres why. Feedback looping in different Preamps creates more noise in certain frequency bands and less noise in the other bands. So the noise levels varies in different bands from one Pre-amp to another. If you have a Pre-amp that has very little to no noise interfering with the ten main bands, then you have a Pre-amp that will sound absolutely wonderful which is why feed forward Pre-amps will always sound better. The Hegel premium line came into the U.S. in August 2009 and have already picked up over thirty retailers in three years which is impressive. |
Audiofeil..where is your brain?..I think you have too much mold in your bong. I was referring to solid state only relying on solid state engineered designs 35 years ago. I never brought up tubes vs. solid state. Thats another subject. |
hi has anyone compared XP-30 with JF Corus? i know of there is a price gap between them but it's not that big. just would like to know their sonic difference, if which one is more relax & sweeter, the leading edge attack and high's extension, which has more air around the notes etc.. thanks |
Audiozen,
I'd be very interested in auditioning the P-30, or hearing it at a dealer.
When I go to the Hegel website, they don't even list their U.S. dealers.
Not a good business practice, IMO.
As long as they do business like this, they won't get an appreciable part of the U.S. market, no matter how good their gear is.... |
08-13-12: Danielk141
Audiozen,
I'd be very interested in auditioning the P-30, or hearing it at a dealer.
When I go to the Hegel website, they don't even list their U.S. dealers.
Not a good business practice, IMO.
As long as they do business like this, they won't get an appreciable part of the U.S. market, no matter how good their gear is....
Danielk141 (Threads | Answers | This Thread) There's a dealer link on the top of home page. http://www.hegel.com/usa.htm |
hi Audiozen, your emphasis on feed forward tech is noted here. could you describe more about sound character of P-30 or Hegel's "house sound"? i heard Amphion Argon speakers before so it's easy for me to relate your experiences.
If compare to ayre KX-R preamp, would P-30 be similar? as you had mentioned full, controlled & organic with 3D space, i assume it has more air and good at presenting complex orchestra passage without compressing musical notes, that would certainly come with excellent transparency right? higher octave is smooth without harshness, attack & transient of highs also have clean leading edge without roughness. is that the benefits of feed forward? i'm getting interested, thanks |
Knghifi,
Thanks! I stand corrected. All I could get the other day was the U.S. highlighted in blue. |
NP Danielk141, planning to check out the H30 at my local dealer. |
Philipwu..I would take the Hegel P-30 over the Ayre KX-R in a heart beat. The Hegel is warmer, richer and fuller than the Ayre. One thing I don't like about the Ayre is the loud clicking sound of the volume control when you raise or lower the decibel gain. Damn annoying. The other negative of the Ayre is the output impedance is 300 ohms balanced and 150 ohms single ended.which is too high for my blood. The output impedance of the Hegel is 75 ohms which makes it easier to drive amps with low input impedance. The Ayre has great resolution and detail and is very fast but is not as relaxed and organic as the Hegel. If your looking for an exotic sculptured space age looking piece of aluminum with an interior that looks like the circuit boards inside the dash board of a UFO, then the Ayre is for you. But if musical performance is paramount to your needs you will get a much better sounding Preamp with the Hegel and won't waste $18,500.00 on the Ayre. |
Hthaller,
Even if its a bit off topic here: Could you please let us know your opinion on the Pass Labs speaker SR-2 which you heard at Reno Hi-Fi? How do they compare to your Martin Logans? Are they a perfect fit for pass amps what one might expect? Your opinion would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance!
BoSo27 |
Audiozen, I believe that someone is selling you a line of bull on the feed forward versus feedback argument. You can always achieve lower levels of measured performance with feedback loops. In critical control applications such as reactor design no one uses feed forward without having a feedback loop. With respect to amplifier design it's my understanding that you can get excellent measured performance with feedback designs. However, designs which use too much feedback don't sound as well subjectively.
You are naive if you believe Nelson Pass is unaware of these trade-offs. |
Sorry - I don't check the forums all that often, but regarding the SR-2's ...
They sounded very good, indeed, but making a direct comparison is tough. The room environment was very different from my own and I was actively focused on the differences I was hearing in the electronics.
What I can tell you is that were no obvious flaws that drew attention. Very open, detailed, 3-dimensional, as you would expect from a dynamic driver system. Maybe missing a half octave at the bottom, though hard to say with the source material being used. I felt they were more seamless and "refined" than my Odyssey's, which are an older generation of ML technology, to be fair.
They are a bit pricey, though. I think retail is ~$18,000.
As you say - a bit off topic - but the last step in evolving my system was to trade the Odyssey's in on a new pair of Summit X's. I made two trips to Overture last summer and auditioned them against the Magnepan 3.7's and 20.7's. However, I did not audition any dynamic speakers that they carry. There were plenty to choose from, but was advised that to decisively better the Summit X's, I'd be looking at spending $25k and up. |
Hthaller,
Thank you so much for your post!
Have fun with the Summit X´s!
I will try to listen to the SR2 myself. |
The p20 does not use the so called feed forward tech sound engine yet still managed the same noise floor as p30 at 130db.
Yet the p20 performance is claimed to be 90% of the p30.
So much for the feed forward soundengine crap |
I just listened to the "priceless" Pass Labs 40th Anniversary Sony Vfet amplifiers(only six in the world!) at the NY Audio Show. They were being driven by the XP20 which surprised me so I asked the Sony rep why they didn't opt for the XP30 in this cost no limit configuration? He said simply that they had initially used the 30 but found that the XP20 just sounded better and allowed the Vfet amps to really produce the magic that Nelson Pass knew that their output devices were capable of... If that's not a testimonial for the XP20, I don't know what is!? |
That is a very interesting comment. Love it! I've got the XP-20 and can't yet afford to buy the XP-30. What was in the rest of that system in NY? |
The system consisted of the Sony flagship AR1 speakers, a Sony hi res streaming audio player, a top of the line VPI turntable , the Pass Labs vfet mono blocks and XP20 pre strung together with Kimber Kable. Simple yet delicious sounding. Definitely one of the top three systems at the show hands down! I wouldn't be so quick to rush into an XP30 based on what I heard the XP20 doing... |
Hi all,
I am using bi-amping configuration. Do you think the "gain-control" of XP-30 will degrade the sound quality of "slave" amp.? Why or Why not?
Is the "gain-control" of XP-30 only to decrease the amp's gain , not to increase?
thank you! |
The folks at Pass are great and very responsive to questions. They would be your best source for that info, I would think.
BTW, I did not like the volume being set to zero when returning from theatre bypass so they made a special NXP controller for me so it now sets the volume at 50. How is that for customer service! |
Guys, never believe the high sn ratio crap.
It also means details are filtered away.
Leaving a lifeless dull sound |
I know it because my 15yr old usd2k preamp 98db sn ratio sounds clearer and livelier than my new preamp at 125db costing usd9.5k , a unit which won a reviewers choice for that matter.
Anyone who read too much into the technology and spec is going to regret like i did. |
Hi Mkwglyg,
If you don't mind me asking, what are the brands of both preamps you are refering to? Thanks
-phil |
XP-30 Impressions
I've been developing the Belden ICONOCLAST TM series of audio cables, and have used a Pass Labs XP-10 almost through the process for it's stunningly good resolution and transparency compared to about anything I threw at it. I was told to aim for the XP-30 as nothing has the tonal balance of the Pass Labs, which I so admired. Sure, everyone should have one of those except the cost!
That line of reasoning didn't work too long and as things go, I kept saving for the XP-30 up grade (I'm told it IS and upgrade!). So after two years of stuffing money aside, I took the plunge and ordered a unit from Pass Labs. It comes in ONE rather big HEAVY, for a pre-amplifier, box.
I won't go into detail on the unit as it's been out awhile, except that it is a three chassis unit that DOES take several days to reach stable operating temps. LOTS of metal. Unlike any pre-amplifier I've ever owned, the two channel gain stages DO get warm. Initial plug in sound was warm and hazy, and my cold MOON W-8 amplifier and not recently played Martin Logan CLX with stereo balance force 212 subs were just telling me to go away. I turned on the radio to about 75 dB SPL and left for two days. When I stuck my head in the basement, the RADIO was simply amazing sounding, not like I've heard it before. I sat there and listened, I swear to it, the RADIO for several songs. Times a wasting...on to records and the VPI classic 3.0 signature with a SUMIKO Blackbird cartridge.
The XP-30 is super easy to get used to, and is essentially like my XP-10. I did set the internal gain to +16 dB from 0 dB stock, with a +23 dB still unused. I am using an Austin Audio Works head amplifier that is a lower gain output, so I need a little OOMPH from the preamplifier. The switches are on the inside, and I wish they were located on the bottom of the unit so the circuit length could be near the same, but improve the user experience. But, it is generally a one time thing and it done.
More on the XP-10. This unit has excellent resolution and openness. The bottom end is VERY tonally good but softer sounding than typical. It has tight resolution, but is dynamically just shy of ideal. It is great sounding, but lacks some PUNCH at times. The mids are the XP-10's strong suit, and it leverages them to great advantage. Treble is either great, or can be on the hard side depending on the source material. And, they are slightly out of character with the rest of the XP-10's sound. The treble tends to say, listen to me at times. It very good, but can be a touch pushy for attention through the CLX.
Look at it like this, a speaker can have trouble BLENDING all of the drivers to a single whole and so do electronics. It doesn't seem like they should but they do. The XP-10 has a tweeter that is great, but of different character. The softer bass response isn't an issue with me as it is still well blended to the great mid-range. The wonderful 3D sound-stage the XP-10 throws out is also a HUGE bonus in it's price range. This pre amplifier is no slouch.
Until I entered the realm of the XP-30. This unit is a master piece of tonal oneness and natural dynamic impact. The amplitude response seems to be EXACTLY uniform top to bottom, and absolutely seamless in frequency integration. There is but ONE single driver and the frequency or dynamics doesn't change it's spots. It is so uniform you quickly forget all about the pre-amplifier in the chain as your head zeros in on just the music, in one expansive aural view, and I mean ALL of it. Immense in width, height and depth, with seemingly infinite amplitude response. I don't mean in a slam bang kind of way, but even on micro textures, the sound is simply so, so natural in an unbelievable way. They talk about the CLX as ONE driver operating over a wide frequency range, this XP-30 runs away with that idea on the electronics side.
I played the original AMERICA. America album and the acoustic guitar harmonics are so fully fleshed out and right it seems implausible a pre amplifier change could do it, but it does. The richness off the string plucks is simply exquisite. The dynamic response and harmonic structure are way past the best I've heard. Wide band instruments on the XP-10 had an artificial brightness to them that was just different enough to take on it's own stage, and you ear taken away from the whole at times. Not so with the XP-30. The entire sound stage stays in character, always.
I then went to Peter Paul and Mary - in the wind. This is an old album that is beautiful to listen to. Again, the ability of the XP-30 to throw everything at you in such frequency linear and amplitude linear fashion is unheard of prior to this getting the unit. Female and male vocals are stunning in edge character some refer to as holographic placement. There is no overemphasized leading edge zing to create resolution, but a dead nuts locked on transient response that won't let the music get away. The music is there, and so is the XP-30. When you hear it, you KNOW it is right.
Digital is an achievement too. With my worst stuff the XP-30 has that awful hard edge much more under control (Hootie and the Blow Fish CD). Here is where the XP-10's treble was too eager to please and could spit at times with red book CD's. Not so the XP-30, oh the CD is still HOT, but it lacks the over eager edge that can wear on you. The XP-30 makes sure it isn't any worse than it really is, and I appreciate it immensely!
A incredible run through on Loreena McKennitt - Journey So Far: The Best of Loreena McKennitt CD is just divine. I can't figure out why artist like this aren't WAY out in front of the industry. The XP-30's talents are in kind with Loreena's. Both are a beautiful thing. The XP-30 layers this unique listening experience with the precision to matching her rich and controlled voice.
Bass impact and depth is no longer an issue, you hear the music instead. The electronics vanish. There is virtually no artificial blending of the bass, mids, or treble as there just aren't any seams in their delivery. If you want a pre-amplifier to announce something unto itself, don't get an XP-30. This pre- amplifier is all about the flow of music. The XP-30 doesn't shout anything except the music. The XP-30 is an invisible element in the presentation, not a participant per say. This is how it should be but seldom is.
No tube unit that I've heard comes close to the vast extremes this unit manages with ease. Tubes seem to excel in the mid range, but can't get the exact same wonderful act going down low or up high. I'm not saying tubes can't be darn good, but I can say I want way past darn good, and I want it all the time, and I want it everywhere. SS gives me that in the XP-30.
True, there is the newer Xs line, but the XP-30 gets you squarely in the I can't believe it sounds this good arena at a way lower price. To me, the XP-30 is a deal to be reckoned with. The three boxes take up some space but trust me, you'll be glad to give it up to the XP-30. Change is always full of apprehension, but the buyers remorse on the XP-30 lasted mere minutes. I might be fibbing there as I never heard it try to make me doubt it's character, ever. Yes, it is THAT good. |
The moon740p measured impeccably and touted some technological advancement M-eVol2 volume control, mLovo crap. 120db sn ratio....
Won a reviewers choice who need to have his ears checked.
no, its not system matching or break in time, i took care of that.
It sounded refined, smooth and smooth means veiled. Lack of airiness, clarity and crispness.
Everything seems polished and filtered and bloated, that is probably why it measured so well.
My aged aragon trounced it in every aspect. |
The expensive lesson here is, never read too much into a manufacturer's technological breakthrough bulls and fancy marketing crap.
Second, never fully believe what the reviewer says.
3rd,in audio, an equipment which measures well does not necessarily sound good. In fact, it could be a sign that something else is compromised which is why it measured so well.
|
There are not many preamp out there which can beat my humble aragon 28k.
Throughout my comparison, it stood well against ml326s, accuphasec2420, ayre5xemp, mbl5010, jeffrowland capri,
It completely trounced moon740p, musical fidelity , rogue audio.
Other makes not yet tried.
Pity it does not have balanced output, cannot fully bring out my amp's potential |
Interesting read Rower30, thanks for sharing.
I found myself agreeing throughout because I have the XP-20 & you mention characteristics synonymous with the XP-20.
I hope I get to hear the XP-30 in my system! |
