Yes,
I've only learned of shotgunning like 2 weeks ago from this forum. There is a thread on it, rather long and detailed, on the benefits and drawbacks of shotgun configuration.
Oh, if you are double biwiring and using two different cables, I have a tweak that might work so you won't hear the desparity between the better and the worse cable. I never heard of anyone doing this before, so I am proclaiming it my creation, and naming it cross double biwiring.
Like I explained before, I used to double bi-wire, but the weaknesses of the Midnight became very apparent in my system. I wanted to get another Argent, so I can take the weaker cable out of my system. But before I layed down the greens, I rewired the speaker cables.
My amp is designed to double bi-wire; it has two outputs on each side, left and right. I connected one single run of Argent on both the HF and LF positive on the amp side to the speaker HF and LF positive. And I connected the Midnights to both the speaker and amp's HF and LF negative.
This yielded a much balanced and coherent sound. I don't have two Argents to compare, but I doubt it would sound any different.
It wasn't until I got the Virtual Dynamics powercord, did the soundstage became too wide, then I removed to bi-wire and went with full range. |
It is amazing how this confusion persists. I checked around and Shotgun is where you run a whole cable for the positive terminal and a whole cable for the negative terminal. This is why you hear of Shotgun on non-biwire speakers. Double biwire is one cable for the highs (plus and minus) and one cable for the lows (plus and minus). To run shotgun biwire you need four cables: One for highs/plus, one for high/negative, one for lows/plus and one for lows/negative. All speaker manufacturers I checked use this terminalogy except Synergistic Research. The call their standard biwire cable configuration Shotgun. No wonder folks are confused, even some companies don't agree, or don't know what the rest of the industy is using for terminology. |
There is not right or wrong answer. It really depends on the speakers which placement is best whether closer or toe'd in, etc; as well as the shape of the room. Everyone needs to figure it out for themselves. |
Pm,
In most situations, double bi-wire, using the same cable on HF and LF would be best. You should borrow some cables or buy some with 30day trial offers and experiment for yourself.
Sugar, yup, i moved my speakers closer together by about 6 inches. Before they were about 8 ft apart. I don't have them toed in. I feel this ruins the imaging. |
If you are using jumpers, you are not bi-wiring. Only one path is carrying the signal from the amp. |
As the woofer has been "pushed" forward from the amplifier, the suspention pulls it back to rest at dead center. The action of the coil being brought back through the magnent causes kick back voltage that is introduced in the cross over and relayed to the tweeter. Bi-wiring eliminates this because it puts the amp inbetween the electrical connections of the drivers thus grounding out the voltage.(this is how I understand it) By seperating the 2 sets of wire instead of a bi-wire cable I would think you could keep things cleaner. |
Paul, You can keep your current cables & just use one of the speaker sets of terminations-just tape off the other set so they don't short out on anything. Then you can buy another set of cables and have a true bi-wire set up. From this you can decide if you like this cable better for the high or low freqs. (or both) and then proceed with the next step that you've already outlined. Just an idea on how to go about it taking small steps.
Given your budget I'd like to suggest Luminous Audio Renaissance speaker cable. You can email Tim & ask about your particular application. If youre interested & can't find the link email me & I'll forward it. Good luck. |
Wow, I learned a lot about bi-wiring from this post. As Driver has pointed out, I am currently applying Single bi-wiring. What I was asking if I can do is called True bi-wiring, which seems to be superior. So, now I must ask, which is the route I should go. First, I have the Decware Integrated tube amp and ML SL-3's using Tara Labs Phase II in a Single bi-wire configuration and silver RCA interconnects.
Do I:
1) buy 2 identical sets of cables for True bi-wire.
2) buy a better single set of cables and purchase Goertz silver jumpers.
3) buy a better single set of cables and run a short length of cable to the second set of speaker terminals.
Which method is likely to give the best results for a given budget, say $500-$600 for used cables? Perhaps this should be a seperate post, but any suggestion on which cable to use?
thanks to all,
Paul |
You can also affect the center focus with speaker placement, if the cables sound great otherwise. My speakers are slightly toe'd in. |
Hey Sugar,
For me to use bi-wire is double jeaporady. What I mean is, when I was burning in my P3 VD powercord with my speakers bi-wired, my soundstage was way too wide where the center focus dissapeared. Also, the deficiencies of the Midnight when comparing to the Argent became much more apparent after using VD's powercord.
Thus, I removed the Midnight and ran my speakers full range, Coherency and timing improved as well as focus. Swapping for the Goertz jumper improved on these 3 factors even more.
I did discuss this with Rick at VD lastnight. He told me the P3 does have a stage widening effect when connected to transports.
I've ordered the Audition powercord, to be connected to the transport. Then I wouldn't have the double jeaporady soundstage effect, hopefully, and might go back to bi-wire. However, now that I am hearing the obvious deficiencies of the Midnight, I don't want to use it again.
All this being said, I am very happy with the sound I am getting using full range with the Goertz jumpers. |
Viggen, I have a pair of double run (biwire) pair of AQ Slate (not currently using). They worked very well. I am currently using a single bi-wire pair of Blue Circle BC92. Even though a single cable, the BC92 is 10 AWG per termination at the speaker end, so almost like a double pair of other brands. |
Sugar,
I don't have two runs of the same cable to compare with the jumpers. However, I have been double-bi-wiring for the last 6 years using AQ Argents/Midnights. After some powercable upgrades, my system sounds much better by letting the speaker run full range. I lose a little on the highs and lows, but I am achieving midrange magic, especially after adding the Goertz jumpers.
I posted my findings in another thread before. Another agon member semed kinda miffed that I didn't like the Argent/Midnight doublebiwiring. He said the AQ factory highly recommends this set up. Well, they were good. But now the Midnights stick out like a sore thumb. |
Here's the way I know it.
Single bi-wire: Each stereo set has two cables. Each cable has one + and one - termination at the amp end and two +'s and two -'s at the speaker end.
True bi-wire: This is a standard stereo pair of speaker cables X two. Two completely individual sets of stereo speaker cables. I use this method as it offers the convenience of versatility whether it be changing the speakers or the cables themselves.
Shotgun: Two runs of cable instead of one.
Shotgun bi-wire: First, look at this pic: http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/referencespeakerlarge.jpg
Each cable run has one terminal end at the amp and two at the speaker and each run consists of 4 cables (or wires), with 2 of the cables going to each speaker termination. For a complete stereo set of speaker cables this means four sets of shotgun bi-wire cables with a grand total of 16 runs of cable. I tried this once & it choked the soundstage. I asked a very knowledgeable cable designer/manufacturer about this & asked if that meant too much capacitance or inductance? He said could be either or both. Anybody care to comment?
OK, I'm done, and I prefer Sharp Cheddar W/Port Wine. |
When I was not bi-wiring, I pulled my stock jumpers off and replaced it with decent cable. Of course I had better sound that way. I guess my rule of thumb for jumpers is this: Buy the speaker best speaker cable you can afford, then buy two feet of the next step up in the line to use as jumpers. |
I have been biwiring for at least 10 years;still don't have the terminalogy lingo down.Most all that time I had 2 complete sets of wires. --Doubled up on the amp posts. EACH and EVERY time I started with run and jumpers; EACH and EVERY time the improvemnts ,adding the second run were huge. --This applies to using Analysis jumpers, before adding the second run, as well. And yes a quality single run with jumpers,betters less quality bi wires. |
Viggen, My comment to you about not bi-wiring is better comes from earlier posts by others. Unless you tried a double run of the cable you are using for a single, against the jumpers, I am not surprised you may find the jumpers better. Probably in all cases, the stock jumper should be trashed in favor of what you are doing.
A cheaper (or different) bi-wire cable will not always perform as well as a better single cable, for the reason the single cable is just better, not because of bi-wiring.
I guess you would need a double run or a bi-wire version of the same cables to do a good comparison. B&W actually recommends bi-wiring with their speakers. |
Does everyone here bi-wire their speakers?
I think I am the only one that doesn't bi-wire around here.
I just got some Goertz silver jumpers. These jumpers are solid silver and 10 mm thick. Hmm...... they sound better than bi-wire in my system. |
No Maxgain. Get the Shotgun!!! The Bi-Barrel variety.
For Japanese gear the correct term must be "Shogun".???
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OH NO! It's starting all over again! Run for your life! Garfish, could you pass the fondu to Sugarbrie? |
It is actually called double bi-wire when you use two pairs of cables. Shotgun is where you use double cables to non-biwire speakers. Whatever; it should usually work well because you have a higher total gauge for each driver. |
Maxgain's WARNING is right on regarding that thread on "shotgun wiring"-- I sort of participated in it too. Thinking about it too much can turn your brain to cheese. Still, there's worthwhile discussion there-- if you take it slow. I use what is called true bi-wiring-- that is four individual wires to each speaker. Your speakers must be bi-wire ready, ie each must have four terminals to do this. GOOD LUCK. Craig |
The idea behind true biwiring is that more of the current from the amplifier is sent to the midbass drivers. (They usually require more power than tweeters) Simple circuit equations tell you that if you have two wires connected to one source, more current will be sent through the larger diameter wire. |
That is "shotgun" and it can have some benefit with some wire but will not duplicate bi-wire.
Look for a crazy post a few weeks back on "shotgun bi-wire".WARNING!,AVISO!,CAUTION!, reading this post may make your mind melt(it is real confusing to explain and even more confusing to read). |
