Mint Protractor for the Classic Toneram 10.5i-SE

Your question was answered in the first post with the source cited and you completely dismissed it as wrong and slammed the poster. Later, it was confirmed that the S2P info on VE was incorrect based on info provided by VPI and again you refuted the claim.

Twenty posts later, you learn how to use a ruler and now decide that the first post was correct and that the info on VE is wrong. Thanks for contributing to the confusion by vehemently stating facts that were indeed wrong.

Testpilot,

Why are you so angry? The only "slamming" in this thread was your tirade that brought nothing to the discussion. But thank you for telling us that apparently you're having a bad day, or are an angry man in general, or both.

At worst, I criticized VPI for providing inconsistent data, which is understandably frustrating and nothing new. The Classic tonearm WAS mounted with a S2P of 262 mm at some point, and Ken Willis still makes two protractors for the Classic tonearm based on two different S2P distances (258 and 262 mm, not to mention Yip who apparently uses 259 mm) so my skepticism was valid, and measuring can be tricky. I have no problem with a manufacturer changing specs on their product, but a heads-up for the customers would be nice (e.g., through adding an identifying symbol when a product is changed). The very tonearm in question is a good case in point as good luck finding its true effective mass, and which version you actually have if you're a Classic turntable owner - aluminum, steel, a combination, a combination with more damping? So yes, I did dismiss the data provided by VPI based on my experience, but did not slam the poster.

Similarly, to say that the article on Vinyl Engine was based on the wrong info is just nonsense as when it came out it was based on the specs released by VPI and on the measurements of their own jigs. The article might have less substantive validity today after VPI apparently changed some of their specs, but it certainly makes a valid point regarding lack of transparency and confusing information from the manufacturer. I love my turntable, and think VPI is a great company, but I wish they made it a bit less frustrating for owners of their products in this hobby where great accuracy is the key to the desired goal of faithful music reproduction.

In the end, all was clarified, and I see no confusion, just a lot of good info and a cordial discussion. That is until you decided to change that. So thank you very much sir. I hope you feel better now.

Have your read your response to those who politely responded to you.

Brf, those numbers are definitely incorrect. I measured the S2P distance and it's precisely 262 mm. This is what VPI used to have posted on their website a few years ago before they took it down. It is definitely not 258 mm

Also, the effective length is not 273 mm

Why do you assume that the info Mike gave you is correct? Get a ruler and measure the S2P distance on your Classic and see what you get.

Get a ruler and measure the S2P distance on your Classic and see what you get. As I said, if the distance is from the sharp pivot point to the center of the spindle, as it should be, it is dead on 262 mm on my Classic.

I get an effective length of 277, which again confirms that the S2P distance is 262, not 258 mm. I can't argue with the ruler.

A basic understanding of geometry will tell you that a 4mm difference in the S2P distance cannot be achieved between a level and non level tone arm (unless we are talking about the VTA tower being adjusted upwards by inches and not mm).

You asked a question and then proceeded to argue and discount the responses from seasoned Audiogon members who know a few things about VPI tables. I don’t have a problem with questions, but you always answered in the definitive when in fact you were wrong.

Testpilot,

You took select quotes from several of my posts out of context to prove something that I'm not quite sure is relevant to anything except to fuel some sort of a forum feud. I guess you forgot to quote from the posts where I admitted I was embarrassed by insisting on my wrong position, and openly thanked posters personally for their input. If Brf felt offended by me calling into question information he got from VPI, I'm sure he was more than capable of expressing himself, and he does not need you to advocate for him.

Look, it's a hobby forum where members come to get information, clarify information, exchange information, ideas, and express their, sometimes strong, opinions. In my opinion this is precisely what occurred in this thread and no lines were crossed, and apparently nobody except you had their sensitivities offended, which is rather absurd considering you were not even a part of it until now. I sincerely admitted I was wrong, and sincerely thanked all for their feedback and great info, including personal thanks. What else do you want me to do? If you give me your address, perhaps I can come over and give you a foot massage. Would that make you happy? Ridiculous.

You just don’t get it.

It is okay to post a question and challenge a response, but “your” challenge was never in the form of a query, but merely refuting the answers and never wavering on your original thought.

You got an answer in the first post, and instead of saying, “are you sure, because mine measures differently” you simple state “those numbers are definitely incorrect”.

So, what did we learn?

1) Classic JMW S2P distance is 258mm,
2) Overhang is 15mm,
3) Effective length is 273mm
4) Info on VE is wrong

So everything you originally claimed was wrong.