2. amps-preamps
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Is too much power in an amp really a problem?

As recently as 8-10 yrs. ago, I maintained my card carrying residence in the ‘lots o’ watts’ camp’ regularly. I’ve since held only a casual attendance to that group, and since departed with the acquisition of higher eff speakers, and lower powered tube amps.

Now I’m debating the future and appropriateness, of that perception and considering another SS, or a non tube amp. This time a digital amp… such as a class D or ICE configuration… as in a Bel Canto, PS Audio, Spectron, Wyred 4 S, etc., to use for both music and HT with my current Silverline speakers.

Several of these amps profess IMO rather high ratings for output power. 250, 300, and 500 wpc into 8 ohms, as your ‘oh by the way’ choices, and then doubling up should the impedance drop off to 4 ohms!

1000 wats per!

E frekin' Gad!

Truth be told, I’ve never put together a high eff speaker & high powered amp combo, nor felt the need, so I’m in a whole new ball game now, or am I?

I understand immense power reservoirs on tap, (like with my former BAT vk500) is a good thing, as well as are other attributes like a good input impedance, and control or damping figures. that amp ran VR4 JRs though, and both have since departed la casa Sunburn.

Additionally, my current tube mono blocks (120wpc) handle my 93db Sonata IIIs quite well IMO. My Odyssey Stratos SE also does a good enough job too rated at about 160 wpc. Between the two amps, the Dodds are the better sounding, and appear to have better control and more ease with the Silverliness.

In making a choice on one of these Digital or ICE amps, should the power numbers be regarded as something other than what they are? I mean more likely, do 250 wpc into 8 ohm rated ICE amps provide likewise results or the same feel, of an SS amp having the same output? Ie., control, power reserves, etc?

I do feel a good match between the speakers and amp is a prime consideration now, and do not wish to buy far too much or too little an amp, given these thoughts.

There too is the thought of the amps actual 'voice' itself to consider.

I sure wouldn’t want to smoke the speaks with too little or too much power on tap. Or have the amp ()s) always loafing. Or is that loafing bit just nonsense?

Any experiences and insights here on the digi power front is more than appreciated as I'm trying to get a 'feel' for this 'new to me' amp topology and not over or under buy.

Thanks much.
blindjim
kijanki's avatar
kijanki
4,413 posts
 
Dodgealum - it is complicated. 60A peak current but at what output voltage? for how long? Why do you need 60A? Even on 1 ohm load it would deliver 3600W.

1000W Icepower (1000ASP) can deliver 40A for about 0.5s. Minimum load is specified as 2 ohm. I wouldn't pay too much attention to specifications but more to reviews or auditions.

Can amp like that blow your speakers - sure, but if you undersize you'll get into risk of cliping and damaging tweeters (high frequency content). Icepowers have even soft clipping built in to prevent it (and all other protections).

Icepower has incredible damping factor at low frequencies DF=4000 but it is pretty much useless since inductor inside of the speaker box, in series with the woofer, limits df to about 100 (80 mohms typical resistance).
markwatkiss
508 posts
 
Too much power is like too much sex you can never get enuf.
blindjim OP
3,092 posts
 

Thanks a whole bunch so far everyone…

The insights are super, the sound of it is key… and the words on how numbers apply & translate were outstanding.

Guido, I liked the review on the VA speakers.

Well, keeping booze and boozed up friends away from the remote control, and gear is not a consideration… and I learned a few years ago about handing the remote to the ‘girl friend of the month’ while I’m otherwise occupied.

I seldom if ever really crank up the vol. My hearing is sensitive, the room is not cavernous, and my preffs aren’t towards paint peeling these days… Once in a very great while I’ll zip things up for some Def Lep, ZZ or Gordon Goodwin, Illinois Jacquette, etc… but only temporarily… a song or two.

I doubt I exceed 95 - 96db +/-, on avg during those few minutes.

…and who want s to hear K D Lang 7 tony B at 98db, anyways?

I may have not been 100% clear as to my fears/worries regarding the power similarities or diffs from ICE to SS… I merely wish to get a feel for about which gate I’d best be in when deciding. Current levels.. eg., 150 +/-; 250 +/-: 500 +/-; etc.

True enough, the voice of the power plant is a larger concern. I sincerely loved the big ol’ chunky VK500 w/BAT Pk. On 88-89db speakers.

I love the sound of the 120 wpc MK II Dodd mono’s on the 91-93db speaks I have now… with the Thor pre of course.

The Odyssey SE 150 +/- either with the Onkyo receiver or Thor ain’t bad either, just not even close to the all tubes setup… but quite liveable.. Especially if no repetitive A/B’ing is going on… and it doesn’t.

So given the speed of recovery ICE’s have, I’m getting the imp here a 250 into 8, 500 into 4, should be easily enough ICE.

Now, as usuall the preponderance regards ICE’s tenor… it’s sound. I get the imp too, they are image happy little boxes, dynamic, and possess very good headroom.

But are they in general, dryer or cooler sounding than SS?

A predominate amount of the time this new pair of monos or stereo amp will serve purely as main ch’s for HT.

Now and then, I’d use them with the Thor for pure audio.

Short list needs are rain free mids, easy yet revealing top ends and good low req response.

The Wyred 4 sound units look attractive, the reviews sound awesome, and the price is right for a ST500. IMO.
larryi
3,804 posts
 
The sentiment that one can always benefit from more power, may be true, assuming nothing else is lost in attaining more power, is often grounded on demonstrations that live music has an enormous dynamic range. In particular, a piano, and symphonic orchestras are used as examples. But, no commercial recordings ever really exploit the full dynamic range of either; if they did, most people would be unable to listen to such recordings. In other words, the importance of lots of power is greatly exaggerated.

Are there tradeoffs in attaining more output capability? At least some designers think there are big tradeoffs. Some designers think something is lost when more than one output device is used (or two in a pushpull design). In the solid state realm Dartzeel amps are designed on that premise (their original amp sounds pretty good to me, though I don't know if any particular design choice accounts for the good sound). Designers of low powered tube equipment also think the same way. I tend to not like as much tube gear with high power and lots of tubes.

I have only heard a couple of Class D amps (Bel Canto and a Rowland). The Rowland (early model costing something like $14k) I heard auditioned in two systems owned by friends. In the system with Sonus Faber Anniversarios, it sounded decent, though a Hovland Radia amp sounded better to me and is a lot cheaper. In the other friend's horn-based system (107 db efficient), it sounded much worse in comparison with low output tube amps.

I don't know where the current state of the stands with respect to switching amps, but, my understanding is that there is NO performance parameter where a switching amp is better than conventional solid state; good design being a matter of minimizing bad characteristics. The advantages of switching amps are all practical: compact size, high efficiency, low heat output, and low cost to produce. That may well mean that at certain price levels they outperform other types of amps, particularly where truly high levels of power are needed. I think they would be at their competitive worst, where high power is not needed and price is not a major limiting factor.
guidocorona
4,298 posts
 
"But are they in general, dryer or cooler sounding than SS?"

The answer is. . . there is really no answer, because there is no longer an . . . "in general" with ICE amps. Some of the older designs tend to be on the cool side of neutral. The more recent designs tend to fit exactly where the designers want them to fit. E.g. the Bel Canto Ref 1K Mk.2 that I review yields mounds of harmonics and has just a smidjin of warmth. It definitly does not sound like stereotypical old ICE, nor like stereotypical SS. On the other hand, it neither has a stereotypical tuby sound, although its neutrality has just the slightest hint of tubes. I have heard some comments that the Ref 500 may be even slightly more extended and may have an even sweeter treble. Guido
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