Speaker Placement


This is a tough topic for the newbies, and even some of us old guys. Regardless of the theory and even the software available, I suspect there is much that the more experienced among us could pass on with this problem. As you shift your speakers closer to the optimum position, what do you hear? What do you hear when the speakers are too close to the front wall, or when they are too far out? What do you hear when they are too close together and need to be moved further apart? What do you hear when they are too close to the side wall? What effect does toe-in have? What strategy do you employ to dial-in a new set of speakers or a new room? I am sure Albert Porter could help us all on this one. I will post some of my experiences if this topic gets rolling.
redkiwi
Once they've stopped "creeping" (yea, I know what you mean) you might check the thread I posted "the winter lessons" to see some thoughts on other things to concider. I have found that speaker placement works very much in harmony with the entire system, Footers, cords and tweeks all need to be concidered after the speakers find there perfect spot. You can find perfection with the speakers in the right spot after continued tweeking, but don't waste the time tweeking until the speakers work with the room. I speaketh from great wasted experience! J.D.
Front wall/back wall? I'm from downunder remember, it all looks different from here. I haven't had any chance to use RHUBARB yet on this post, which is my only disappointment. Otherwise this is a very good read.

A friend asked me the question that I started this post with because he wanted to spend a weekend setting up his first high-end system, and most of it was easy to lay out for him, except for this speaker placement issue. So I tried to think about how I could describe what to listen for, but despite setting up speakers loads of times I realised I didn't really have a method, or at least it was too intuitive for me to write down. Without pushing my speakers around the room to remind myself, I will post some things that I do remember about setting up speakers.

First of all, I believe that amp/speaker/room size relationships change the results. That is - for my room, changing the amp or speaker can (not always) result in different optimum positions. I think the root of this is that moving speakers around can affect the relationship between the sounds that define the outline of a singer or instrument and the sounds that define the body of a singer or instrument. The perceived "reality" of the sound and image are therefore affected if we do not hear the right combination of primary sounds as well as resonances and the harmonics of both of those. A similar relationship of sounds affects depth, width and height perspectives, and it seems to me that our brain recognises the very subtle ways in which propogation of sound through air, and multipath (ie. the combination of direct and reflections) affects the waveform, and that these relationships have to be right for us to perceive the "space" clues in the recording. But all of those relationships can also be affected by going to a speaker that moves significantly more or less air (which I mean in a way that is different than sheer loudness), in that a speaker that is too "small" for a room may need to be moved closer to boundaries than it would in a smaller room. Similarly a "large" speaker can overpower a room unless it is moved out towards HP's "thirds" position. Similarly a very powerful amp can make a "small" speaker perform more like a "big" speaker. I am not sure precisely what I am talking about. Is it just tonal balance? No. Perhaps there is something to do with relationships between impulse and decay (whoops I almost spelt that with a "k"). Perhaps it is something to do with phase errors. Perhaps it is something to do with reducing the smearing effect of reflections in the room that destroy resolution. Most likely it is all of these and some others too. Either way I think we may be trying by empirical experiment to optimise the value of a multinomial equation. So my second point is that getting an optimum result can be severely inhibited in the first place if the amp/speaker/room size equation is poor. So you end up facing a compromise like tonal balance is best with the speaker very close to the wall but soundstage is flattened. Obviously you also have a problem if either the equipment or the room is poor, but that is another matter.

So... The first thing I do is some very quick guages of a room, by just plonking the speakers in a likely place and moving them three or four times only with a brief listen in between. I listen to soundstage shape, gross tonal balance issue (ie. way too much or too little bass) and how images float free of speakers and boundaries. I do this to check which of a room's walls I want the speakers against, or the wall I will work with first.

So... Moving speakers forward and back (back and forward for you northern hemisphere people). The problem with sorting this out is that two effects come into play. The first is that, too close to the wall and a female vocalist's image can flatten and the outlines and nuance(the sound of the parting of a tongue from a lip or the breath that accompanies the vibration of the vocal cords) become recessed. This is what I call too much body and not enough outline. The voice just becomes less interesting because there is less going on - the steak with no sizzle. Too far from the wall and the opposite occurs. More outline seems like more resolution, and soundstage depth can be great, but without the body of the voice or instrument, so it sounds lacking in substance and seems to stir the soul less - all sizzle and no steak. What mucks this up is the fact that what gets the right balance for all those midrange voices and instruments may not be right in the bass - for the reasons I raised earlier about size of speaker and size of room etc. With too much bass going on the sound is no longer coherent - there is a transition from a tonally right mid and treble to an overly warm bass that lacks outlines (definition). This is arguably worse than too little bass going on, but on the other hand too much bass can be dealt with by room treatment (which I prefer to do than add a sub-woofer).

So... Lateral movement - ie. moving them closer together or further apart. Firing across a room I am in some agreement with how it was put in one of the first posts here (Abstract7 it was) that it is about opening the soundstage up without it falling apart or images wandering. But it is also about the very same things that I mentioned in moving speakers back and forth, and even more so when firing down a room - ie too far apart, which is arguably also too close to walls and images go flat and undefined, too close together and images lack body. So both of these are going on. And what's more our bass problem is moving around in the equation too. So here it seems to me we are playing around with three outcomes which may not optimise at the same point.

As if that was not enough, if you literally tried the above to try and achieve an optimum result, all your observations only apply to the position you were seated in! Where you sit can be a very useful way to solve that bass problem. But I also find I just like sitting about 10 feet away. Closer and it becomes like listening to headphones, further and it feels like listening to the room. Only in a very well treated room do I like sitting much further away. So moving back and forth can put you too far in, or too far out of the soundstage.

This post is way too long so I will be brief and then stop soon and come back later.

And then there is toe-in. Too close to side walls and more toe-in is required. Similarly more toe-in is required if you have the speakers too far apart or if you are very close to the speakers. The sound of more or less toe-in is covered in posts above.

Which leaves - what seems to work? But I will add my thoughts to the excellent posts already posted before me on this another day.
Nice post Rekiwi, so far your answer is the best to your own question. Real good points, I tend to agree in that there are so many variables that I can't imagine a formula giving an end result. Room shape, room contents, types of walls, ceilings, floors and speaker design concept should give the experienced audionut a starting point. My personal philosophy is start speakers as far apart and as far from all walls as possible with 10 ft left between sitting position and speakers. Not easy if you don't have a large room. Then about 3 inches of movement and listen - it can be painstaking. I also believe some toe in is almost always required on most designs to put some additional solid body on image outlines. Otherwise, you have wide a soundstage with less specificity of singers, instruments, etc. Also on my system I lose a little of the transparency without toe in, ie, I can locate sound coming from the speakers rather than behind the plane. A good test is a CD or LP with background singers to really judge where in the soundstage you want them and how far forward or back, also bunched together or more spread out. Toe-in usually affects that. Also, good point about distance of your chair, the further back the more room interaction, closer and it can sound like your on the front row at a rock show. But the big rule of thumb for me is use 2 or 3 sources of music, find your optimal position and then don't move em anymore. Some music is in phase some isn't, even on the same CD and you will gain or loss the perceived magic you just spent all of your hard work on with different sources. And finally, it's all about personal preference. Unfortunately some people can never be satisfied and get swept away into the music - always looking for something. And it may not be there!
Redkiwi, you refere to the female vocalist with "This is what I call too much body and not enough outline." I think I call that fat! Where as alot of well placed female body is always welcome. (there now you can call this post RHUBARB, and you can thank me later!)
JD, I think it is indeed possible to have too much female body in certain circumstances, but like you, if I read you right, I don't like to be short-changed either.

Pops, I often do it the other way around (that downunder thing), in that I often start too close to the wall and move it out listening for how the soundstage opens up and takes the correct shape, but looking for the point at which the voice starts to "fall apart" in terms of its palpability or body.