Hi Steve, this thread IS fun isn't it? Nothing like stirring up a bit of fun and experimentation!! If the postings on eBay are genuine, EMT 948s are selling by the dozen at the moment, at 700 pounds British a pop. I confess, given their incredible build quality, it certainly doesn't seem genuine, but perhaps someone out there knows.
To recap a bit of history already recapped earlier in this very thread, this is the second EMT owner to fall for the charms of a properly set-up Giant Direct-Coupled Lenco, the first being a fellow with a very large collection of not only EMTs, but also Garrard 301s and 401s, and Thorens TD-124s. He's got the Bug bad (as do I). So, to start the New Year, let's have a look at the history of his own discoveries and recounted tales, in the Great Tradition of Accumulating Evidence. It seems that indeed the Lenco has no upper limit, being only limited by implementation, tuning and recipe. The Lenco demonstrates that build quality is not the whole story, implementation and drive system is: compared with the Garrards, Thorens TD-124, a host of belt-drives and most certainly the EMTs, the Lenco is at the bottom of the heap build-wise. But, it is also a very elegant design aimed like a laser-beam at the problems of speed stability and motor noise and transmission. As I wrote, again at the beginning of this thread, and at many reprises from the beginning of the old thread:
"This is why the Lenco is a work of genius: ELEGANCE. Where EMTs, Garrards and Thorenses are better-built and use “better” motors, the Lenco simply uses what is necessary. As some have pointed out, the towers from which the motor is suspended are cheap tacked-on affairs. Yes, but given that the Lenco motor is hanging from and isolated by springs, a stronger arrangement is not necessary (as simply mounting the Lenco on bricks and attaching a Rega tonearm demonstrates). The motor cannot be divorced from the flywheel-platter, as the idler-wheel makes of the whole an EXTREMELY effective system: the platter has much of its mass concentrated on the rim (as opposed, at least, to the Thorens and the Garrards) and is balanced, which due to its very secure coupling (idler-wheel) regulates the motor speed as the superb motor (spinning gat 1800 rpm and balanced to produce pretty well spot-on speed all on its own via simple momentum) regulates in its turn via torque (wheel) the platter, to create an extremely refined and yet powerful end result. The main bearing certainly doesn’t look like much (though it is very nice and obviously made of very high-quality steel) compared to both these other vintage offerings and modern high-end turntables, but given the horizontal mounting of the motor and less stress (proven by the fact that almost all Lenco main bearings are still in superb condition still) more is not truly necessary. The Lenco motor’s sloping spindle means, also, that such tricks as the magnetic brake on the Garrard, which is often criticized for introducing stresses, is not necessary: the Lenco motor simply spins at full-tilt all the time, open and free, and the wheel is simply slid along length of the sloping motor spindle to achieve perfect and accurate speed."
So, now to the previous Lenco-EMT comparison. For a bit of background, he considers the EMT 927 - an idler-wheel drive - superior to his EMT 950, which is the 948's Big Brother. Among EMT aficionados the 927 is THE EMT of all EMTs. Check out Stafano Pasini’s website (EMTs), as he is an avid collector of EMTs. Significantly, the EMT 927, considered the “Ne Plus Ultra” of EMTs (and hence of turntables period in many circles), is an idler-wheel drive. Just for emphasis and to make the point clear so it is not lost and dismissed as a minor detail: the EMT of all EMTs is the 927, and the 927 is an idler-wheel drive. Peter also had a very hard time bringing his Lenco up to the Heights which it can currently reach (as did I). Now, to the record:
"Hello Jean,
Thanks for your inspiring input. I do agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say: "Each must adjust his 'table combo to match his or her system, these are like complex instruments in their own right!" That turntables in general are amongst the most complex creatures out there, as far as "getting them right" is concerned, I would be the first to admit, but to say that each must adjust his own table combo to match their own system, I feel is perhaps stretching it a bit. My own tables (Garrard 301 (all types), 401, TD124, EMT 930st, 927F, 938 and 950) all have been with me for many, many years, and been played through a lot of shifting electronics and speakers during this time. They are all very good TT:s and consistently performing accordingly, regardless of the rest of the system. Others, like SP10, LP12 and others, have proved to be, at least to me, more inconsistent and perhaps "system dependent". Therefore, when I play my Lenco, that's what I'm looking for, a consistent, solid performance, that can compare with the above machines. My opinion is that if you have an "ultra-solid-table" and the system still doesn't sing or sounds perhaps poorly balanced or whathaveyou - then it's not turntable tuning that you should be thinking about...on the other hand if you know that your system sounds balanced and performs in a satisfactory way except when playing vinyl, then...the TT probably is where it's at.
So methinks that it's all about keeping track of what your point of reference is, and preferably just introduce a single system change/mod/alteration at a time to be able to tell what was responsible for what at the end of the day. This method is, however quite time-consuming as we all know, and can test anyone's patience, but still...
When I listen to any TT (including the L75 in my new plinth), I compare it to my above "references", of which, the EMT 927F, sitting in its EMT shock-absorber frame, on overall balance is the best TT I have ever heard so far.
At the same time, I already know just how good a "good" Lenco can sound, and I gather from what I've been reading in this fantastic thread, that many contributors feel that Jean's method brings this machine right up there, with the very best - so you bet I'll persist - far too important stuff to "ignore".
After all: MUSIC MATTERS MOST! or in short; 3M! - so there's no room for "chance" or "leaving well alone" - more like FULL THROTTLE on this one (;-)
Thanks again for the great input - I'll keep posting any progress I might make.
Thanks Mike for the clarification - greatly appreciated!
Cheers
Peter
07-25-06: Tunein4fun
SUCCESS AT LAST!!! Have worked almost around the clock on my Monster L75. Done it all (apart from gluing the mat to the platter...I will, I will...) - tried various bolting patterns (2 - 12 woodscrews in the pan) and added the top layer to the plinth - the 4 mm bolts are discarded and in their place are sturdy 40 mm woodscrews - drilled up the bolt-holes straight through the chassis. Did some complementary work on the chassis damping, put an Ortofon AS-212 with a Denon DL-103D (playing through old UTC 1950's vintage step up trannies (Petra Music Boys) into my 1958 EICO HF-85).
What can I say, Jean (!!!) and all you other guys who've been so supportive and helpful: GOBSMACKED!!!
I truly couldn't believe it when I heard even the first note being played (it happened to be soft piano entertainment/easy listening piano) - the AIR around that single tiny gentle chord...and then it just went on and on and on...PRAT...DUUUUUUUUUUUDES!!! - now I know what you mean - I had imagined something darn good, judging from the very positive comments from so many contributors - but it's better still; it's just all there (including some minor electrical noise, that I need to sort out) and in such a beautiful way.
I'm humbled and feel obliged to thank Jean again for creating and researching (working-really-really-hard-over-a- long-period-of-time) this "DIY" venture into pretty damn serious TT teritory - THANKS MAN!!!
As many of you have read; I tried this and I tried that and I was (almost) ready to call it a day - but hey, had I put this much work into it already, I just had to see it through, and I'm truly glad I did. To anybody considering taking this project on, I can just say WOOOWW!!! and GO FOR IT!!!.
Cheers
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Krenzler and Peter and thanks; the "differences" from "before" are many; I took the time to experiment with the number of screws in the pan - I tried to go about it in a "systematic way", tapping as I went along: I started off with 2 screws, located in the two original existing holes, that are used to bolt the L75 down to its original plinth (they are at 12 & 6 o'clock. From there, I used other existing holes and added some of my own whenever I felt I didn't get the "thud" I was looking for in that particular area. I ended up with 12 screws in the pan - they are not large screws, and they have been tightened so that when tapping the pan anywhere (i.e. in any area supported by the plinth) I get the same kind of "thud" i.e. it sounds uniformly the same (as far as I can tell anyway).
I'm sure that the same result can be had, using another number of screws, positioned differently from mine. As mentioned previously; earlier I had left out the top layer of the plinth (i.e. the ply layer with the "big round hole" - for the pan - in it). This meant that the chassis part, surrounding the pan was "sailing in the wind". I know Jean mentioned to me that he - with some player at least - had heard very little difference soundwise, coming out from bolting down that particular chassis bit, so I didn't think much of it. What I found on my Monster L75, was that adding more chassis damping material (almost completely filling it up) and bolting down the chassis edge (i.e. the outer lower edge of the entire square chassis) made a huge difference. Jean earlier quoted Shindo, who said he used woodscrews to bolt the Garrard to his plinth instead of the original Garrard bolts, 'cos of the superior coupling he got that way. So I thought I've got nothing to lose, trying the same trick. The sad part is that I did most of these "changes" in one go, so it's impossible to recap what each alteration actually accomplished. However, I intend to make another MegaMonsterL75 (inspired by Jean's reports on the improvemnt of adding even more mass) and hopefully on that one, I will be able to keep a log to try to find out what does what.
There is no material whatsoever, between the pan-bottom and the plinth - it's bolted solid to the wood.
Peter, mounting the Ortofon arm, wasn't all that difficult - I enlarged the original Lenco armhole, so that the Ortofon base could pass through it (these bases come in taller and shorter versions - I used a shorter one). I made a tonearm-board from an LP12 tonearm-board - this is only supported by and coupled to the plinth in the corners via quite small woodscrews (just gripping and then a tiny bit more). I will post some pix later.
The Monster still isn't properly supported or "ideally located" but it doesn't seem to care.. it simply produces stunning music (;-D
I was playing some Jimmy Smith this morning - an old 1960's US Verve (stereo) - geeeeeeez...I'll say it again; I'm GOBSMACKED!!! It's beyond "audio", as Jean put it (;-)
07-26-06: Reinderspeter
Tunein4fun,
Out of curiosity, where does this leave the Lenco in comparison to your EMTs?
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Reinderspeter...curiosity killed the cat...and I have yet to A-B these machines, but my very convincing gut feeling is that the Monster is superior in quite a few areas (the most "natural PRAT" I have ever heard for one). The first time I heard a 930 play, it was an eye-opener for real, and I just had to have one. It took me a very long time to track down a 927, but when I finally got the chance to hear one play, I was impressed out of my shoes - it was so much better - the best TT I had ever heard overall - took me an even longer time to locate one that was for sale... The feeling I have, listening to my Monster is much stronger still - I really do lack words, but to use some; gobsmacking, flabbergasting, astonishing, mind-blowing - I-HUMBLY-ADMIT-I-HAD-NO-IDEA; it's that sort'a out-of-this-world kind'a thing - by far the biggest kicker in my entire audio-life (been into "audio" for 35 years and especially TTs). This is not a "linear" improvement on other TTs - it's a GIANT LEAP for vinyl reproduction. So I would say; THE MONSTER RULES! I will eventually, for fun or "for the record" do some A-B when time permits, and post whatever results I get here.
Short version: The Monster is simply one heck of a TT!
Plans for the MegaMonster are already in the back of my mind - some ideas lurking about, and a couple of things I'd like to try. Please note that this attempt is not at all prompted by any urge to "improve" on the Monster (I'm not touching the Monster...it's faaar tooo goood for that) - simply to have fun - yup (;-)- afterall that's what life's (almost...) all about methinks.
Even with the plain or "lowly" Shure M75 the Monster excels and shines in the most enchanting way, regardless of what I throw at it music-wise - a fact that probably will put whatever little "credibility" I have, on the line with some people, but hey; so be it!!!
I realize that I have used some pretty strong wording in this post and if somebody reading this, thinks that I'm exaggerating or that I'm "over the top"...think again (;-)"
End of record. All that said, will this latest EMT owner sell his EMT? I don't know. But if he does he won't have any trouble selling it Steve, so just keep your eyes open in case he does post it. I had waited to see if the Lenco-EMT comparison was just a matter of mistaken first impressions, but so far this isn't the case. The Lenco story (and by extension the Idler Story) isn't over, not by a long shot. It can be further perfected and many are working on this. However, the core of the Lenco - platter, bearing and idler-wheel/arm - remains as a testament to the Power of the Idler. Comparisons will continue, reports will continue to come in. The Lenco is still the cheapest way to achieve world-class reproduction, and it may be even better than that. The Garrard is more expensive, but when one considers just how good it can be made to be, it too is cheap for the investment made, as was reported in a review in positive-feedback (401vsTNT). Long may the search for magical music in the home continue, time now to go out and enjoy nature!! Have fun all!!
To recap a bit of history already recapped earlier in this very thread, this is the second EMT owner to fall for the charms of a properly set-up Giant Direct-Coupled Lenco, the first being a fellow with a very large collection of not only EMTs, but also Garrard 301s and 401s, and Thorens TD-124s. He's got the Bug bad (as do I). So, to start the New Year, let's have a look at the history of his own discoveries and recounted tales, in the Great Tradition of Accumulating Evidence. It seems that indeed the Lenco has no upper limit, being only limited by implementation, tuning and recipe. The Lenco demonstrates that build quality is not the whole story, implementation and drive system is: compared with the Garrards, Thorens TD-124, a host of belt-drives and most certainly the EMTs, the Lenco is at the bottom of the heap build-wise. But, it is also a very elegant design aimed like a laser-beam at the problems of speed stability and motor noise and transmission. As I wrote, again at the beginning of this thread, and at many reprises from the beginning of the old thread:
"This is why the Lenco is a work of genius: ELEGANCE. Where EMTs, Garrards and Thorenses are better-built and use “better” motors, the Lenco simply uses what is necessary. As some have pointed out, the towers from which the motor is suspended are cheap tacked-on affairs. Yes, but given that the Lenco motor is hanging from and isolated by springs, a stronger arrangement is not necessary (as simply mounting the Lenco on bricks and attaching a Rega tonearm demonstrates). The motor cannot be divorced from the flywheel-platter, as the idler-wheel makes of the whole an EXTREMELY effective system: the platter has much of its mass concentrated on the rim (as opposed, at least, to the Thorens and the Garrards) and is balanced, which due to its very secure coupling (idler-wheel) regulates the motor speed as the superb motor (spinning gat 1800 rpm and balanced to produce pretty well spot-on speed all on its own via simple momentum) regulates in its turn via torque (wheel) the platter, to create an extremely refined and yet powerful end result. The main bearing certainly doesn’t look like much (though it is very nice and obviously made of very high-quality steel) compared to both these other vintage offerings and modern high-end turntables, but given the horizontal mounting of the motor and less stress (proven by the fact that almost all Lenco main bearings are still in superb condition still) more is not truly necessary. The Lenco motor’s sloping spindle means, also, that such tricks as the magnetic brake on the Garrard, which is often criticized for introducing stresses, is not necessary: the Lenco motor simply spins at full-tilt all the time, open and free, and the wheel is simply slid along length of the sloping motor spindle to achieve perfect and accurate speed."
So, now to the previous Lenco-EMT comparison. For a bit of background, he considers the EMT 927 - an idler-wheel drive - superior to his EMT 950, which is the 948's Big Brother. Among EMT aficionados the 927 is THE EMT of all EMTs. Check out Stafano Pasini’s website (EMTs), as he is an avid collector of EMTs. Significantly, the EMT 927, considered the “Ne Plus Ultra” of EMTs (and hence of turntables period in many circles), is an idler-wheel drive. Just for emphasis and to make the point clear so it is not lost and dismissed as a minor detail: the EMT of all EMTs is the 927, and the 927 is an idler-wheel drive. Peter also had a very hard time bringing his Lenco up to the Heights which it can currently reach (as did I). Now, to the record:
"Hello Jean,
Thanks for your inspiring input. I do agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say: "Each must adjust his 'table combo to match his or her system, these are like complex instruments in their own right!" That turntables in general are amongst the most complex creatures out there, as far as "getting them right" is concerned, I would be the first to admit, but to say that each must adjust his own table combo to match their own system, I feel is perhaps stretching it a bit. My own tables (Garrard 301 (all types), 401, TD124, EMT 930st, 927F, 938 and 950) all have been with me for many, many years, and been played through a lot of shifting electronics and speakers during this time. They are all very good TT:s and consistently performing accordingly, regardless of the rest of the system. Others, like SP10, LP12 and others, have proved to be, at least to me, more inconsistent and perhaps "system dependent". Therefore, when I play my Lenco, that's what I'm looking for, a consistent, solid performance, that can compare with the above machines. My opinion is that if you have an "ultra-solid-table" and the system still doesn't sing or sounds perhaps poorly balanced or whathaveyou - then it's not turntable tuning that you should be thinking about...on the other hand if you know that your system sounds balanced and performs in a satisfactory way except when playing vinyl, then...the TT probably is where it's at.
So methinks that it's all about keeping track of what your point of reference is, and preferably just introduce a single system change/mod/alteration at a time to be able to tell what was responsible for what at the end of the day. This method is, however quite time-consuming as we all know, and can test anyone's patience, but still...
When I listen to any TT (including the L75 in my new plinth), I compare it to my above "references", of which, the EMT 927F, sitting in its EMT shock-absorber frame, on overall balance is the best TT I have ever heard so far.
At the same time, I already know just how good a "good" Lenco can sound, and I gather from what I've been reading in this fantastic thread, that many contributors feel that Jean's method brings this machine right up there, with the very best - so you bet I'll persist - far too important stuff to "ignore".
After all: MUSIC MATTERS MOST! or in short; 3M! - so there's no room for "chance" or "leaving well alone" - more like FULL THROTTLE on this one (;-)
Thanks again for the great input - I'll keep posting any progress I might make.
Thanks Mike for the clarification - greatly appreciated!
Cheers
Peter
07-25-06: Tunein4fun
SUCCESS AT LAST!!! Have worked almost around the clock on my Monster L75. Done it all (apart from gluing the mat to the platter...I will, I will...) - tried various bolting patterns (2 - 12 woodscrews in the pan) and added the top layer to the plinth - the 4 mm bolts are discarded and in their place are sturdy 40 mm woodscrews - drilled up the bolt-holes straight through the chassis. Did some complementary work on the chassis damping, put an Ortofon AS-212 with a Denon DL-103D (playing through old UTC 1950's vintage step up trannies (Petra Music Boys) into my 1958 EICO HF-85).
What can I say, Jean (!!!) and all you other guys who've been so supportive and helpful: GOBSMACKED!!!
I truly couldn't believe it when I heard even the first note being played (it happened to be soft piano entertainment/easy listening piano) - the AIR around that single tiny gentle chord...and then it just went on and on and on...PRAT...DUUUUUUUUUUUDES!!! - now I know what you mean - I had imagined something darn good, judging from the very positive comments from so many contributors - but it's better still; it's just all there (including some minor electrical noise, that I need to sort out) and in such a beautiful way.
I'm humbled and feel obliged to thank Jean again for creating and researching (working-really-really-hard-over-a- long-period-of-time) this "DIY" venture into pretty damn serious TT teritory - THANKS MAN!!!
As many of you have read; I tried this and I tried that and I was (almost) ready to call it a day - but hey, had I put this much work into it already, I just had to see it through, and I'm truly glad I did. To anybody considering taking this project on, I can just say WOOOWW!!! and GO FOR IT!!!.
Cheers
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Krenzler and Peter and thanks; the "differences" from "before" are many; I took the time to experiment with the number of screws in the pan - I tried to go about it in a "systematic way", tapping as I went along: I started off with 2 screws, located in the two original existing holes, that are used to bolt the L75 down to its original plinth (they are at 12 & 6 o'clock. From there, I used other existing holes and added some of my own whenever I felt I didn't get the "thud" I was looking for in that particular area. I ended up with 12 screws in the pan - they are not large screws, and they have been tightened so that when tapping the pan anywhere (i.e. in any area supported by the plinth) I get the same kind of "thud" i.e. it sounds uniformly the same (as far as I can tell anyway).
I'm sure that the same result can be had, using another number of screws, positioned differently from mine. As mentioned previously; earlier I had left out the top layer of the plinth (i.e. the ply layer with the "big round hole" - for the pan - in it). This meant that the chassis part, surrounding the pan was "sailing in the wind". I know Jean mentioned to me that he - with some player at least - had heard very little difference soundwise, coming out from bolting down that particular chassis bit, so I didn't think much of it. What I found on my Monster L75, was that adding more chassis damping material (almost completely filling it up) and bolting down the chassis edge (i.e. the outer lower edge of the entire square chassis) made a huge difference. Jean earlier quoted Shindo, who said he used woodscrews to bolt the Garrard to his plinth instead of the original Garrard bolts, 'cos of the superior coupling he got that way. So I thought I've got nothing to lose, trying the same trick. The sad part is that I did most of these "changes" in one go, so it's impossible to recap what each alteration actually accomplished. However, I intend to make another MegaMonsterL75 (inspired by Jean's reports on the improvemnt of adding even more mass) and hopefully on that one, I will be able to keep a log to try to find out what does what.
There is no material whatsoever, between the pan-bottom and the plinth - it's bolted solid to the wood.
Peter, mounting the Ortofon arm, wasn't all that difficult - I enlarged the original Lenco armhole, so that the Ortofon base could pass through it (these bases come in taller and shorter versions - I used a shorter one). I made a tonearm-board from an LP12 tonearm-board - this is only supported by and coupled to the plinth in the corners via quite small woodscrews (just gripping and then a tiny bit more). I will post some pix later.
The Monster still isn't properly supported or "ideally located" but it doesn't seem to care.. it simply produces stunning music (;-D
I was playing some Jimmy Smith this morning - an old 1960's US Verve (stereo) - geeeeeeez...I'll say it again; I'm GOBSMACKED!!! It's beyond "audio", as Jean put it (;-)
07-26-06: Reinderspeter
Tunein4fun,
Out of curiosity, where does this leave the Lenco in comparison to your EMTs?
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Reinderspeter...curiosity killed the cat...and I have yet to A-B these machines, but my very convincing gut feeling is that the Monster is superior in quite a few areas (the most "natural PRAT" I have ever heard for one). The first time I heard a 930 play, it was an eye-opener for real, and I just had to have one. It took me a very long time to track down a 927, but when I finally got the chance to hear one play, I was impressed out of my shoes - it was so much better - the best TT I had ever heard overall - took me an even longer time to locate one that was for sale... The feeling I have, listening to my Monster is much stronger still - I really do lack words, but to use some; gobsmacking, flabbergasting, astonishing, mind-blowing - I-HUMBLY-ADMIT-I-HAD-NO-IDEA; it's that sort'a out-of-this-world kind'a thing - by far the biggest kicker in my entire audio-life (been into "audio" for 35 years and especially TTs). This is not a "linear" improvement on other TTs - it's a GIANT LEAP for vinyl reproduction. So I would say; THE MONSTER RULES! I will eventually, for fun or "for the record" do some A-B when time permits, and post whatever results I get here.
Short version: The Monster is simply one heck of a TT!
Plans for the MegaMonster are already in the back of my mind - some ideas lurking about, and a couple of things I'd like to try. Please note that this attempt is not at all prompted by any urge to "improve" on the Monster (I'm not touching the Monster...it's faaar tooo goood for that) - simply to have fun - yup (;-)- afterall that's what life's (almost...) all about methinks.
Even with the plain or "lowly" Shure M75 the Monster excels and shines in the most enchanting way, regardless of what I throw at it music-wise - a fact that probably will put whatever little "credibility" I have, on the line with some people, but hey; so be it!!!
I realize that I have used some pretty strong wording in this post and if somebody reading this, thinks that I'm exaggerating or that I'm "over the top"...think again (;-)"
End of record. All that said, will this latest EMT owner sell his EMT? I don't know. But if he does he won't have any trouble selling it Steve, so just keep your eyes open in case he does post it. I had waited to see if the Lenco-EMT comparison was just a matter of mistaken first impressions, but so far this isn't the case. The Lenco story (and by extension the Idler Story) isn't over, not by a long shot. It can be further perfected and many are working on this. However, the core of the Lenco - platter, bearing and idler-wheel/arm - remains as a testament to the Power of the Idler. Comparisons will continue, reports will continue to come in. The Lenco is still the cheapest way to achieve world-class reproduction, and it may be even better than that. The Garrard is more expensive, but when one considers just how good it can be made to be, it too is cheap for the investment made, as was reported in a review in positive-feedback (401vsTNT). Long may the search for magical music in the home continue, time now to go out and enjoy nature!! Have fun all!!