Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Acoustat6, I must confess that I use two velodyne DD12 subs in stereo to my Talon Hawk monitors and the sound is fantastic. I was wondering if there are two distinct prioritisations between you and Raul here:

Raul focuses on the system from front (cartridge, cdp, tuner etc) to back (speakers and subs). Your concern seems more with what happens to that sound when it leaves the system. Of course the problems of acoustic fluctuation also often applies to the actual venues at which one hears live performances.

I do agree though that room acoustics are a critical issue. I just prefer to focus on having the best system I can and allowing it to grow into the differing listening environments that I will be able to afford over our lives.

Hi Dgob, I too believe, that the front end components are very important, you can't have "good" sound without them. The problem is audios dirty little secret and it inability to admit that without great in room response you cannot get even remotely close to great sound. And it is continually perpetuated through statements like "I Have a great room" when no acoustic treatment is applied.

The difference between a live venue and a "reproduced" venue is that the live venue sound only alters the sound at that theater, move to another theatre and the sound changes. At home, the recordings take on the colorations of the room and every recording is affected equally. Worse yet is comb filtering and decay times, treat the room properly and all of these proplems are decreased, and yes, then you are finally able to "listen to the music". If you remove these distortions then you are truly hearing the recordings and your equipment for what they are, and therefore accuracy (at least as accurate as your system allows) is obtained.

Bob

Hi Acoustat6,

I still feel that the vehemance in the argument is a bit disproportionate. I just read the thread that seems to create many of the current issues and Raul states that he HAS treated his room: "I'm very luckily and don't have (I fix it) many room problems related." I'm not certain how extensive or successful this 'fix' now is in his system but it hardly seems grounds for assuming a complete acoustic disaster!

I feel that there are potential compromises in our efforts to capture live music and distinctions along the whole audio chain: original performance; unique venue; particular recording process; replay system (Hifi); receptive environment (both 'subjective' - hearing ability, preferences and expections - and 'objective' - listening room, stands etc). Our two most manageable and consistent parts in this chain would be the hifi and listening room. Maybe this typifies your argument and I do agree concerning the industry but we are all aware that Turkeys rarely vote for thanksgiving?

However, your point about the "live venue" could make any argument for neutrality redundant. If our "reproduced venue" becomes our individual "theatre" then the question of the performers that appear there would largely remain one for our hifi systems. This on the basis of your argument that there is no one, absolute "live venue" and performers will sound different at distinct venues/theatres. Such questions of compromise and individual judgement might therefore affect all points in the audio chain.

I probably have to say this however, as I have lived with my hifi in various and distinct acoustic environments and know that I can get a consistency through the best equipment and worse of environments. A customised listening room would however be the icing on my cake. Maybe for fairer times!

I happen to have a carefully voiced dedicated room(thank goodness)of which I am very satisfied finally,but after alot of sweat/experimentation....However I have heard "some" room/set-ups that have little actual treatment,or attention to acoustics,which sound "marvelous"!

A close friend, owning new Magico Minis,lives in an apartment building.His room is also a general living room,and has ordinary furniture,a T.V. and over sized coffee table,full rug etc...But he is a dedicated hobbyist!

Of course his "biggest problem" in getting a good sounding acoustic is his "wife" -:)...Just kidding,but you get my point!....She actually deserves a medal,for allowing the "hobby" to develop to such an extent in the ONLY spare room available(there is a kitchen and bedroom too).....But there are still acoustic issues which will "never" be addressed....Yet,and yet..it sounds "fabulous"...What can I say? It really does!....My friend is a "wine collector",so maybe his generous offerings are one reason I like his sound SO much -:)..I'm going there soon,I hope.

My friend Sid Marks(of Mercury Living Presence fame,as the reviewer for TAS....and I "ONLY" mention him in the context of his "expertise and high standards",an understatement actually)is NOT one to go out of his way to treat a listening room....He actually puts his efforts into still acquiring interesting LP's,to add to an almost unmatched collection,which takes up most of "his" premises(he is a bachelor).But he is VERY critical of "anything" taking away from musical authenticity.I don't question him anymore.He's proven himself too many times.

Yet(like Raul most likely is very fortunate to have),his room is "absolutely" fabulous!!I mean everyone lucky enough to hear his set-up(which defies logic,it is just SO GREAT)cannot believe how good the "basic" room "allows music to develop"!Who knows for sure how these things "always" work?...Looks can be deceiving!

He(Sid) has a big,bold,dynamic system which puts out alot of energy("probably" similar in energy output to Raul's)....but the acoustic energy just happens to be very well controlled,from the overall room dimensions/wall material,outer room openings etc.Yet,as I mentioned before,not much by way of acoustical treatment.Go figure!!

One cannot really assume a picture of a room,or description tells us everything about it's sound.I have NO reason to believe Raul has anything less than superb sound,really!The guy has been at this for a long time,and is passionate,like so many of us.

Also,a "true" friends group of hobbyists are usually relentless in being worse than "catty women" in critique!So,not to worry....if anyone has audio pals,they will keep you honest......And in my case,caused me to "build from scratch" a dedicated room!Lucky for me,interest rates were cheap at the time it was built.

I was unlucky(lucky in the long run,actually)in that when I bought my home,I thought the "first room" would be OK,but when my friends came over for a listen,they made the criticism on this thread look like a "peace rally"!!-:

Especially Sid who said..."It is a disaster Mark,and some day you will thank me for being SO honest"!!

The comments absolutely embarrassed me,in the poor attention I had paid to things(not to the actual acoustic,but the room's ability to let my speakers "breathe").

I've since solved my problem,but the ONLY way to know if one is successful,is from actual "in person auditioning"!

Best to all.

Just to note what I am now getting from using a pair of the Velodyne DD12 subs in stereo with my Talon Hawk monitors. I've used Audio Technica pneumatic footers beneath each sub and the sound is simply phenomenal. I think that the RL Hardesty article that Raul presents on the second page of this thread (07.02.05) just about sums up the impact of using subs for me. I guess that means that my answer is a resounding "YES", I definitely needed sub's - even though I had not realised it before!