SQ Comparison of 3 streamers

Not to beat a dead horse, but jitter is largely a solved problem for most serious companies, so while I think it’s great that the Rivo+ improved the clock and lowered jitter further, I am virtually certain any differences in sound between Rivo and Rivo + that either of us might hear is not due to lowered jitter.  No idea about the other factors however, which is why I think this is an area of the industry where marketing hype can really get out of control.  

We haven’t even talked about your DAC btw, which is multiples more important to the sound you hear.  Look at the numbers for the Mytek vs. the iFi - 0 added jitter from any streamer, which probably means signal is reclocked.  My personal view is that signal to noise ratio, which is really easy to measure, is far more important to what you’re hearing than jitter, and one could do the exact same thing there as Paul Miller does for jitter, i.e., before and after SNR ratios to see how much noise is added by a streamer.  Miller has actually done some of that, but only episodically, so you can’t put together a comprehensive table across streamers and dacs.  A lost opportunity in my view.

@lanx0003 I no longer have the Aurender N200, the last streamer with native software I used to compare Roon, native Conductor and Qobuz connect. I don’t have experience with any of the streamers you listed. However, when comparing native app to Q Connect I heard more refined presentation from the Aurender’s conductor app. Q Connect has a slightly raw and more in your face type of presentation. Works great with rock music. 
My impressions of Roon vs. Qobuz or Tidal connect is along the same lines. Exception is Roon typically sounds worse than the native streamer app based on my experience with Auralic, Lumin and Aurender. 
 

I have a Meitner MA3i DAC now that has a built in network card that makes it a Roon endpoint and allows for Qobuz and Tidal connect. I use Roon 90% of the time but mix in Qobuz and Tidal connect as well. This setup eliminated the N200. 
 

@mdalton  As an end user, you can still judge whether you can hear the effect of jitter. The audible noise floor threshold is around –110 dB. For a 10 ps jitter from a high-end DAC, this is equivalent to approximately –118 dB at 20 kHz (=f)

20log⁡10(2π⋅f⋅jitter) (jitter in ps)

and is likely completely inaudible. If the jitter is around or above 25 ps, its effect could become perceptible, particularly on a very high-end, sensitive system.

Jitter is one thing, but as both you and I have pointed out, electrical noise is equally important. High-end gear including the power supply, is usually measured in  the level of microvolts (µV). For example, the T8 demonstrates outstanding measurements down to 30 µV within the chassis (not sure if in full load?).  I wish all independent reviewers would expand their measurements to include this area.

Other measurements, such as SNR, THD+N, and dynamic range, are more standard, and I generally refer to manufacturer-published data. ASR usually provides these measurements for verification, and I have periodically found them to be consistent with the manufacturer specs. If such data is missing for gear you are interested in, it might be a lost opportunity for you.

Ok, last nerdy post, I promise.  I looked back at some incomplete signal to noise ratio numbers included in Allen’s measurements, and they’re pretty cool too.  So, for the Audioquest Dragonfly hooked up to a noisy PC, SNR was 94 db, but when hooked up to Volumio, was 104.  So the PC added 10 db more noise than the Rivo, which is definitely audible.  Now let’s compare that to an Antipodes Oladra, which cost £25k when it was reviewed.  The SNR number for the AQ was exactly the same, 104.  Interestingly, Allen measured these numbers for the Oladra with the iFi as well, and the SNR was 110 for both the noisy PC and the Oladra.  So once again, the DAC matters; in this case, the iFi, which doesn’t handle jitter well, filters out other noise extremely well!  Finally, Allen also measured SNR for the Lumin U2x with the AQ, and the SNR was 102.5, which is lower than the Volumio.  Really interesting stuff, and it’s just one reason why I have been preaching to people that they do not need to spend big $ to get state of the art performance.

our notes crossed.  Yes, I’ve found some of ASR’s measurements helpful, but unless I’m missing something, I don’t think they typically measure/evaluate streamers.  Part of the reason I suspect is that Amir thinks streamers are basically irrelevant, and that it’s a waste of time and money to spend more than what a Raspberry Pi costs unless you want something a little prettier.  I disagree with this view, but I get it.  Amir believes that a well-engineered dac is not susceptible to incoming jitter, and that good engineering also requires excellent noise filtering (a la the iFi dac).  Again, I get it, but I think that’s too reductive.  I think people should be allowed and encouraged to buy whatever they like, including non-oversampling dacs that measure poorly and are susceptible to incoming jitter.  

My one non-negotiable though is that we should all have as much info as possible to help inform our decisions, and I really abhor the mystical approach where people claim everything matters.  Everything doesn’t matter, in certain circumstances, due to the diversity of our systems.  As we’ve seen, som sacs need low-jitter streamers, some don’t.  

And I like that you’re trying to figure out why you’re hearing a difference between apps that, in theory, should sound the same if they’re just providing identical bit perfect streams on the same piece of hardware.  There has to be an engineering explanation for that, and I hope you provide any additional info you can glean about it.  Have you thought about asking Volumio directly?