New Turntable Advice

I apologize if I come across as a "cost snob", by implying that a $100 TT just cannot possibly challenge in terms of performance, any $1000 and up TT.  But in this case, that is what I think. Whereas, I have no doubt that a $10K TT might even outperform a $100K TT for any individual listener.  It’s just that $100 is too little to take seriously, like a $100 used car. Moreover, that manufacturer has no established reputation for excellence among high end vintage Japanese brand names. These would include the top of the line models from Technics, Denon, Victor (JVC), Yamaha, Nakamichi, Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer Esclusive, etc., but would not include, in my opinion, every single model that even those named august companies ever made. Some are dogs. Usually the cheaper ones or the ones with the most gimicky features.

Let the Doubting Thomas Types express their doubt.

Being uncertain only steers others to believing not enough experience has been had to state with conviction, what is left is mere surmise.

@badbruno I expressed interest in this Thread when you was to make the statement "  I'm worried about WoW and Flutter " and " Isn’t album runout a big deal? "

To assist with this I informed you and others of the following: 

  " The maximum industry standard for the Tolerance of an LP Pressing to allow  for an Off Centre Spindle is 0.2mm.

Do LP Pressing creep in excess of 0.2mm? With the maximum being  0.2mm, the liklihood is not overly concerning. 

Do LP Pressings have a dimension less than 0.2mm? The likelihood seems favourable to have pressing within the Industry Tolerance. "

The following will assist with my info supplied, especially as no one chimed in to help readers of the Thread get a extended learning.

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Playback and the Centre Hole

Even after successful pressing, the centre hole’s size continues to play a role during playback. Record players do not have a standardised pin size; most adopt a slightly smaller diameter of approximately 7.14 mm, allowing for easier record placement and removal. However, some high-end manufacturers deliberately choose diameters at the upper end of the tolerance range to ensure a snug fit.

If a record’s centre hole is on the larger side of the tolerance range and the player’s pin is on the smaller side, the record may sit slightly off-centre. This phenomenon can introduce minor pitch variations, particularly noticeable during sustained notes or slow passages. The standard limit for eccentricity (misalignment or off-centre placement of the record) is 0.127 mm in the older British standard and 0.2 mm in the European and German standards. In extreme cases, eccentricity can cause the stylus to track incorrectly, leading to unnecessary wear and potential distortion during playback.

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As Runoff was your concern I informed on the importance of a Rigid Structure and no flexion occurring as a result of Torque producing energy that is Transferred.

Torque creating energy when transferred is able to Flex the Stator Bowl and impact on the Bearing Housing to the place where the Platter Spindle is not rotating true. The Platter Spindle Bearing Housing might be Anchored with Fastening but the flexion of the Stator Bowl is causing the Bearing Housing to Teeter.

I also informed that certain JVDD TT's and other TT's of any design and era of production can have a Platter Spindle that does not fit with no noticeable movement when in the Bearing Housing, 

Older TT's with unknown usage and Bearing Condition are candidates to have Spindles that rattles in when in their bearing housing, in some cases the rattle can be created to be audible.

A spindle that has Slop will not be ubiquitous, the spacing created by the wear or shoddy fitting of the interface are to be broad in their dimensions.

When a Teetering Bearing Housing is occurring and a Spindle is rotating that has Slop, the impact on the End Sound is dire, I know this condition well and also know it very well as a corrected condition.

The impression the End Sound is able to make when corrected makes a TT with the problem seem abysmal. The unwanted noise and mechanical energy that is picked up by the Stylus simply ruins the replay. This becomes very discernible if  if a comparison is being done with TT's having a Stator / Bearing Housing with corrections used,  that does not Teeter or Rotate off axis and have a Spindle that does not bang about on the Bushes as it rotates..

Which condition would one prefer the tragic mechanical design, that over time and through neglect has degraded to an unknown condition, or a TT that is with a rigidly secure stator bowl, a steady Bearing Housing with a Spindle on Axis as a Rotation, with a Tight Tolerance between Spindle / Bush, where the outcome is a a Quiet Spindle during rotations.

On the latter TT of which I own versions with modification to create this condition, I feel very content that an LP might have a 0.2mm Off Centre Hole and Worse Case this condition in conjunction with an Oversized Centre Hole of 0.09mm,

I really do know I ' Dodged a Bullet ' when it comes to selection for an engineering face making choices I have.  

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Standard Specifications and Tolerances

The centre hole size is one of the few standardised measurements in vinyl record manufacturing but it does allow for some tolerance. The European IEC standard from 1987 specifies the hole diameter as 7.24 mm, with a tolerance of +/- 0.09 mm. Earlier standards, such as the British BS1928 (1965) and the German DIN 45547 (1981), use slightly different measurements. These older standards were based on American RIAA guidelines, which set the hole size at 0.286 inches, allowing for a slight variation of +0.001 or -0.002 inches — equivalent to 7.21 mm to 7.285 mm.

While these variations might seem negligible, they can significantly affect the pressing process. The centre hole is formed during pressing when a steel pin punches through the hot vinyl cake under approximately 100 tonnes of pressure. These pins are not precision-engineered components like watch parts but are crafted with a tolerance level that allows for some deviation. Over time, these pins wear down, impacting the precision of the centre hole size. This wear and tear is inevitable, yet it emphasises why accurate and regular maintenance of pressing plant equipment is crucial.

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I then chose to inform of a JVDD TT that from my experiences of Four Models has from that assessment can offer every thing I am suggesting is valuable as a basic mechanical interface, which is why I am sure another gave such high appraisal, the engine is with substance and very rigid set in place, where the Bearing Housing is well thought out on how the Spindle should interface within it.

I can assure the OP, I own Japanese DD TT's from a Brand that has a Platter that is as secure as a Plate Spinners slowest spinning and a Bearing that has a Spindle that Taps when hand force is applied. I can assure the OP is have seen this TT model with a sought after Tonearm for £8K.

The OP can have a great introduction to the experiencing of JVDD TT's with a likelihood a mechanically sound TT will be imported and they will still have $4.8K in their coffer. 

Ah but what do I know, another who is not afraid of an adventure might be more convincing:

 https://www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/index.php?thread/142596-shakti-vorstellung-toshiba-aurex-sr-510c-plattenspieler/&pageNo=1

 

Kenwood Trio KP-9010 (1988)

• Released during the “golden era” of Japanese hi-fi, this direct-drive deck is praised for its performance:
  • Wow & Flutter: 0.005% (FG direct-reading method)
  • Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 90 dB (DIN-B)
•  
• Claimed by some as “probably the best Japanese turntable.”

Needs a look 

To bring my most recent info full circle. 

The M-S DDX 1500 comfortably sits in the $3K for a Deck Only used item market

Not too long ago on this Forum where some posters in this Thread contributed to a Thread about the DDX 1500.

The OP was a 1500 user and also claimed to own a immaculate Nak' CT Dragon.

The OP although enjoying using the Dragon was more keen to keep the 1500 as the most used TT.

I have introduced the forum again to a Vinyl Source enthusiast who's experiences of equipment and knowledge of equipments function is not easy to surpass.

This person suggests Parity between the SR 510 and DDX 1500.

Another was not giving the Nak' CT Dragon a place over the DDX 1500.

I would suggest enough is on the table to generate a spark of interest, which in my world of solving great equations is exponential as the alternative of creating a spark of doubt. 

Hopefully Inquisitivness and Venturism is being stimulated. 

 

So, you are saying you know a guy who says the SR510 is as good as the DDX 1500. Is that correct? And by the axiom "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other", you are inferring that the SR510 may also be as good as or better than the Nak; is that correct? But it all hinges on the perspicacity of the unknown "vinyl source enthusiast". Before swallowing that odiferous proposition, I would like to know more about the system in which turntables were compared and whether that was the judgement of one person or a panel of listeners. I admit that I am making a judgement based only on photos of the SR510 and the selling price of $100 and the fact that the manufacturer is unknown in the world of high end Japanese vintage DD (JVDD, in your parlance), but based on that information, I cannot agree with your "vinyl source enthusiast" that an equivalence (between the SR510 and either the DDX or the Nak) is possible, let alone the possibility that the SR510 could be superior. That’s only my opinion, of course.