I suspect that the biggest single factor in an RIAA stage is the capacitor dielectric. Once you have heard air gap or vacuum, there's no going back. IMO.
MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?
Dear friends:The main subject of this thread is start a dialogue to find out the way we almost all think or be sure about the thread question : " true " answer.
Many years ago I started the long Agon MM thread where several audiophiles/Agoners and from other audio net forums participated to confirm or to discover the MM/MI/IM/MF/HOMC world and many of us, me including, was and still are" surprised for what we found out in that " new " cartridge world that as today is dominated by the LOMC cartridges.
Through that long thread I posted several times the superiority of the MM/types of cartridges over the LOMC ones even that I owned top LOMC cartridge samples to compare with and I remember very clearly that I posted that the MM and the like cartridges had lower distortion levels and better frequency range quality performance than the LOMC cartridges.
In those times j.carr ( Lyra designer ) was very active in Agon and in that thread I remember that he was truly emphatic posting that my MM conclusion was not true due that things on distortion cartridge levels in reality is the other way around: LOMC has lower distortion levels.
Well, he is not only a LOMC cartridge designer but an expert audiophile/MUSIC lover with a long long and diverse first hand experiences listening cartridges in top TT, top tonearms and top phono stages and listening not only LOMC cartridges but almost any kind of cartridges in his and other top room/systems.
I never touched again that subject in that thread and years or months latter the MM thread I started again to listening LOMC cartridges where my room/system overall was up-graded/dated to way superior quality performance levels than in the past and I posted somewhere that j.carr was just rigth: LOMC design were and are superior to the other MM type cartridges been vintage or today models.
I'm a MUSIC lover and I'm not " married " with any kind of audio items or audio technologies I'm married just with MUSIC and what can gives me the maximum enjoyment of that ( every kind ) MUSIC, even I'm not married with any of my opinions/ideas/specific way of thinking. Yes, I try hard to stay " always " UNBIASED other than MUSIC.
So, till today I followed listening to almost every kind of cartridges ( including field coil design. ) with almost every kind of tonearms and TTs and in the last 2 years my room/system quality performance levels were and is improved by several " stages " that permits me better MUSIC audio items judgements and different enjoyment levels in my system and other audio systems. Yes, I still usemy test audio items full comparison proccess using almost the same LP tracks every time and as always my true sound reference is Live MUSIC not other sound system reproduction.
I know that the main thread subject is way complicated and complex to achieve an unanimous conclusions due that exist a lot of inherent differences/advantages/unadvantages in cartridges even coming from the same manufacturer.
We all know that when we talk of a cartridge we are in reality talking of its cantilever buil material, stylus shape, tonearm used/TT, compliance, phono stage and the like and my " desire " is that we could concentrate in the cartridges as an " isolated " audio item and that any of our opinions when be posible stay in the premise: " everything the same ".
My take here is to learn from all of you and that all of us try to learn in between each to other and not who is the winner but at the " end " every one of us will be a winner.
So, your posts are all truly appreciated and is a thread where any one can participates even if today is not any more his analog alternative or is a newcomer or heavily experienced gentleman. Be my guest and thank's in advance.
Regards and ENJOY THE MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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- 315 posts total
Dear @terry9 : Well, there are some really critical factors in the RIAA curve stage and depends on what the designer decided is the best overall quality performance level kind of design. In our phonolinepreamp caps are critical as resistors too. Yes,almost all know that the best dielectric is the air and in a different place I experienced years ago with IC cables with air as dielectric and over the time were outperformed for " normal " dielectric cables, in reality never sounds better but just different. Now and talking only on caps I have to say that everything the same probably you are rigth however a cap is more than dielectric and I’m not trying to diminish the dielectric importance down there. I have deep first hand experiences with caps running in speaker crossover and electronics as the RIAA and at the input of my 20.6 Levinson monoblokcs that functions as coupling ( by Levinson design ) and at the same time as high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA. I even started a cap issue thread that thanks to that I made " hundred " of discoveries that at the end let me know that I was wrong with my way of thinking that in those times and about caps were for the boutique caps levels as: Duelund, Mundorf, V-Caps, Clarity, Jantzen, Audyn, and the like. I used and tested all those names and using its top models as the Duelund silver or V-Cap teflon Cu. No one in those both applications where I used can’t compete against Wima ( this was my conclusion. ) looking for true/real neutrality. Wima does not uses Cu or Silver ow any other inmaginable cahrateristics as paper in oil or in wax and other aberrations as that but in the input of my 20.6 I was using a very expensive V-Cap Teflon Cu and Wima outperformed with out any single doubt and for afew dime$ ( no more than 5.00 vs over 300.00 ) Nothing can’t beats a good electronics design using the rigth model Wima cap that’s way humble cap at any standard but we have to remember that Wima is the Standard in the whole Industry not only audio. For me it’s more important the design of the cap and the quality level excution of that design and in these Wima is way superior no matters what, in some models Kemet is very near to along Vishay. You can look to almost any good electronics design and all of them use Wima, yes the red/blue ones different models. Boutique caps are MKTG making money with each one ignorance levels ( including manufacturers. ). I paid thousand of money for those caps ( I have to say: heavy colored caps, each one in different ways but down there just does not exist neutrality. ) and yes it was a very high price paid it but finally I learned and here there is no true going back. In the audio world happens things that many times maybe we don’t have a scientific response due to its complexity of to many invloved parameters, the caps is an example but next an example of a truly old cartridge wher even its output pin connectors are not gold plated but is a true challenge for any today top cartridge. I made a review of and several gentlemans testify different sessions what I said in the thread:
So, it’s dificult for me to confirm the air dielectric in caps other that my experiences with the IC cables. Wima knows for sure what it’s doing. Yes, almost no one likes Wima in the analog/electronics audio signal path because has not any coloration you can detect: this is why.
R. |
I had much the same experience with caps - Wima was quite good, some of the boutique brands not. I settled on Multicap styrene caps as being the most neutral. As for direct experience and experiment, I can help you there. I did experiments with a break-out box, then on alternate channels of my phono stage. Since all the good caps use a dielectric with a dielectric constant in the 2 - 2.5 range, and vacuum and air are very close to 1.000, I wondered. I thought that maybe radio stations that used $10,000 caps knew something that I didn’t. Tried those dielectrics in the same circuit as my favoured Multicap and it was no contest: clearer, cleaner, and far smoother (ESL system powered by mono blocks with air bearing / Koetsu front end). Costly, though. Very bulky. And a wee bit tricky to design for. But worth it, IMO.
You can’t be serious. |
@terry9 : Why can’t be serious? I’m refering that the same cap runs as the amplifier coupling capacitor and at the same time I’m taking advantage on that Levinson design and is used too as the high pass crossover for my speaker/subs. So, the high pass filter is not an additional " nothing " in the speaker/sub audio signal,I just use that coupling cap for both jobs.
Btw, for years I used the Multicap polyestirene ones and still own in stck several samples and asafactI use it today in the high pass filter for the add-on back speaker tweeter that works from 7khz up. Btw, in my system applications main speaker crossovers and amplifiers input coupling caps the Multicaps were and are beated easily for theWima model I’m using and Kemet does the same. In my external hard wired speaker crossovers I’m using the Kemet for the woofers instead the Wima.
Now,all what I have to do is to make a self test at the input of the amplifiers and in the speaker tweeters waiting that the size of the air caps permits that I do it. At both places is very easy to me detect be aware if the air cap can beats the Wima I’m " married ". I can’t make the test in the RIAA due that then we have to re-calibrates everything in that circuit to achieve our 0.012db RIAA deviation and this is to much work for us rigth now.
R.
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- 315 posts total