Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

Dear @mijostyn : " . Since it is impossible to standardize our hearing and the systems we listen to we are all thrown into a washing machine of varied opinions much of them based more on individual bias than real substance. "

You are rigth and the " problem " is that to each one of us like different kind and level of developed room/system distortions. The owners of tonearms as the VV one just like the developed distortions that are the " holly grail " for its ears/brain. Are these gentlemans wrong? certainly not because it’s what they like.

I already posted several times in different threads that no one can be questioning any single full subjective opinion, is untouchable even if for some of us could be wrong that opinion.. That’s the real problem with subjectivity but such is the audio world.

Btw, each one of us has " different " level of common sense due that our first hand experiences and ignorance levels/knowledge levels are different too as is each one of us: true " open mind " or true " closed mind ".

" properly designed they both sound exactly the same, like nothing. If an armwand has a sound it is defective. "

In theory I agree because not only the tonearm arm wand has to has no " sound " at all but all tonearm but it’s almost imposible to achieve in audio real world playback tests. In some ways " colorations " ( by many reasons ) are developed in diffrent ways and those colorations are what we listen.

R.

Raul, I advise you to listen to an underhung tonearm and consider that a mathematical solution to minimize TAE at all costs put forward in 1940 might not be the last word in 2023. That’s what I intend to do before forming a definitive opinion. Based on the RS LABS, I think you’re rushing to judgement. Also realize that your and Mijostyn’s position could be turned on its ear: you may be used to certain distortions created by overhung tonearms that you “like”. 

@lewm 

Mijostyn’s position could be turned on its ear: you may be used to certain distortions created by overhung tonearms that you “like”. 

you mean like skating forces causing the TAE to change dynamically with modulation levels?

I spent another week listening back and forth between the "straight underhung Schröder" and my traditional Schick and the normal cues to TAE that I key on are not the same in both cases.  Gross TAE on the schick results in a harness to the high velocity peaks (think miles' muted horn) and that "harsh" sound is substantially less with greater TAE on the straight arm.  The other interesting difference is the larger that normal TAE on the straight arm seems to come at the cost of an overall higher noise floor.  This isn't immediately noticed until I return to the eerily black background of a properly aligned cartridge on the schick.  That said I am beginning to think that there is a reasonably good chance that since very few people are aligned anywhere near where they think they are, the nature of the Viv labs is akin to a conical vs. an advanced profile.  Incorrectly set up the conical wins.... properly set up the advanced profile takes over the lead by a large margin.  A 2° change in TAE has changed one of the best cartridges I have heard to one of the worst.  Change the microridge profile to a conical and suddenly you are "pretty good" for both setups.

dave

How did you create an underhung Schroeder? Does it have zero headshell offset too?

All of the offset is applied at the single mount screw.  The only thing preventing a 0° offset is the back of the cartridge hitting the armwand.   I made a shim to get the clearance so the cartridge could be set straight. 

I looked at the math and suspect the best setup for this type of arm puts the single null point about 80% of the way into the record.  I have found that the predicted distortions by the math need another factor of 2 added beyond the traditional weighting to match what I hear. I also suspect stevenson was on the right track since things get really ugly as you pass the second null and approach the lead-out groove.

dave