Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

lewm

All I know is that the RS LABS RSA1 tonearm violates every “commandment” of modern design ... And yet it works. By comparison, the Viv makes much more overall sense.

Crazy, isn't it? I think there are actually many examples of things in audio that at first glance (or even second, or third glances) wouldn't seem to work. I find it incredible the fidelity we can get from an LP today. I understand the mathematic fundamentals behind digital audio, for example (Fourier, Shannon/Nyquist), yet intuitively it still seems impossible to me.

What interests me about these underhung arms is exactly that - the geometry is contrary to what we've all "learned' is best practice, yet reports from those who've heard it are very favorable. That's worthy of further investigation because it suggests there's something in the current set of accepted best design practices that's either being overlooked, or over- or undervalued. Identifying those underlying factors could lead to better pickup arm designs of every kind, including conventional pivoted overhung arms.

There are people who lack a natural curiosity about the way the world works. For them, there is security and safety in books and policies and theories. But real discoveries - by which I mean both the great ones that change mankind and the small ones that can yield the greatest joy - are usually found in the real world through experience.

Vive la diffe'rence!

I understand the mathematic fundamentals behind digital audio, for example (Fourier, Shannon/Nyquist), yet intuitively it still seems impossible to me.

Like any technology digital had an uphill path to follow. For example jitter was a thing known to cause problems... I have a transport from the early 1990s  (Teac) that was highly respected at the time. But over time its pretty obvious its gone out of date. People update them with better clocks. The newer clock boards you can get on eBay for $20.00 have two orders of magnitude greater frequency stability; after installation this aged transport sounds a lot better...

Some people are dumbfounded by how 'dragging a rock thru a groove' could possibly work; not really realizing that their old saw isn't describing what's happening, because:

There is no substitute for experience.

This is correct.

Its also helpful to know what people have experienced prior to making blanket statements about them. Is mechanical design experience helpful? Is the experience of learning from your mistakes helpful? Is the experience of connecting what measurements we can make with what we hear helpful?

atmasphere

... Is the experience of connecting what measurements we can make with what we hear helpful?

Exactly, and that has been my point in this thread. To make real progress, we need to correlate measurements with what we hear. I think that should be true in all aspects of audio equipment design - not just pickup arms. Obviously others are willing to dispense with the listening part.

Exactly, and that has been my point in this thread. To make real progress, we need to correlate measurements with what we hear.

@cleeds Its been my experience that's what you do to sort out what's going on.

That is what led me to increasing rigidity in the plinth of our turntable; increasing coupling between arm and platter surface and overall making it dead as possible- damped platter, damped plinth. As I did these things the impervious nature of the system began to emerge; when I started the system was sensitive to volume pressures of 90dB; after I was done even at 105dB it was measurably and audibly superior. 

My technique was to place the stylus on the platter pad and measure the phono preamp output while playing a 100Hz tone thru the line stage of the preamp, amps and speakers. 'Success' was in reducing the output. I found that the better the coupling, the more dead the system, the lower the output at any frequency accompanied by a perceived improvement in bass, mids and highs- the system sounded less congested.

Damping the platter was easy but the plinth got tricky since it had to be machined out of solid aluminum.

I've been trying to correlate amplifier distortion vs how the amplifier 'sounds' for a very long time. My experience with that is both the measurement guys and those that prefer to only trust their ears hate what I've been finding. I think this is because the work messes with their world view. Its not surprising to find some pushback on this thread on the same account.