Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

There is difference between any piece of gear and any other one generally and in most cases for many reasons...It is common place experience...

Dont ask for a blind test please... 😁😊

There is also acoustic conditions which OFTEN make difference in gear minute one compared to room control...

And if you want good S.Q. buy first and to begin with some good gear....It is not so difficult because electronic audio engineering is mature technology for many DECADES... 70 years ? or 60 ? or 50 ? We must ask atmasphere for that, he knows....

But nothing will rival acoustic control and treatment to optimize and put your well chosen gear ON HIS PEAK WORKING POTENTIAL... NOTHING....

Certainly not upgrading a good piece of gear already for an alleged "better" one because of publicity by reviewers...

What we hear at the end is acoustically determined anyway ...A bad amplifier compared to a good one will not be changed by the room control in a good one for sure...but any good one will be TRANSFORMED in a miraculously good one...

All basic good design of amplifier and speakers are the starting point not the destination... Acoustic is the key....Nothing else...

i sell acoustic creativity not gear....

 

 

i concur with this post:

"If it measures good and sounds bad, –– it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, –– you’ve measured the wrong thing." –– Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, HHScott

The only measurement that matters is how it sounds in your system in your room with your program. Evaluation by any other method is foolish unless you are buying HiFi Jewelry or Furniture.

 

@mahgister it does not matter how well one treats a room in terms of the direct path sound.
If that sound is filled with distortions, then no amount of room treatments can work by going backwards in time to remove the distortions.

One would hear the direct path sound before any reflections arrive. Whether or not those reflections are high level or super reduced.

While the room may be important, it is not going to fix the amplifier.

Try to understand my point without repeating a common place evidence...

A bad electronic design or a corrupted source CANNOT be compensated or repaired by a room acoustic...

Who does not know that? Who? 😁😊😎

 

My point is that acoustic control method are more powerful than most upgrade

Of gear....

My second point is acoustic is the way, in most case, to transform your system and put it on another level : his true peak working optimal potential.... High quality sound experience is not the AUTOMATIC result after buying a 100,000 bucks piece of gear to replace a 50,000 one... Sorry if you dont know that... 😁😊

 

It is very easy to buy a good amplifier to begin with...Because electronical audio design is mature industry with good products available...

My point is when you have basic good gear the REAL WORK begin, and it is not upgrading to improve MORE because of your " taste" ... Sorry! If acoustic cannot improve a bad quality design, buying and plugging will not replace acoustic... 😁

It is studying acoustic et experimenting with it which is the way and the only way...And especially understanding psycho-acoustic also a bit....

Who dare to say that in audio forum? Me and very few others...

Almost all sell their "taste" in gear all over the place ignoring acoustic....

What i claim is not a common place fact like what you just say... It is a scientific fact: it is acoustic and psycho-acoustic which can explain almost all of  our audio experience...

This does not means that all amplifiers sound the same or speakers...Not at all for sure...

This means the main method to listen to the gear you already own it is putting it in an acoustically controlled room... If not, you will never know how your system can sound in optimal conditions and the difference is HUGE.. It is not an opinion here on my part, it is my experience... Not a common place fact at all because most people have no experience with acoustic anyway...Or very little because in small room passive  treatment is not always  enough to create immersive filling the room sound experience...It takes active mechanical control with Helmholtz resonators AND DIFFUSERS...

it is the reason why i insist about that...

And anyway acoustic in a dedicated room can cost peanuts , i proved it to myself...

I say all that to alert newcomers and advise them to think before throwing money...

Most people here are not bankers or billionaires able to buy and plug without even thinking... All people are not able to afford a pro acoustical dedicated room either...

It is possible to create one at very low cost...

Then i sell hope and creativity and acoustic science...

Who say better?

 

@mahgister it does not matter how well one treats a room in terms of the direct path sound.
If that sound is filled with distortions, then no amount of room treatments can work by going backwards in time to remove the distortions.

One would hear the direct path sound before any reflections arrive. Whether or not those reflections are high level or super reduced.

While the room may be important, it is not going to fix the amplifier.

 

 

 

Try to understand my point without repeating a common place evidence...

A bad electronic design or a corrupted source CANNOT be compensated or repaired by a room acoustic...

Who does not know that? Who? 😁😊😎

Ok @mahgister I get the room stuff, it was just that a lot of the recent posts were on distortion and it being something that differentiates one amp from another.

Sorry that I thought you were tying the acoustic room stuff with the amp distortion.

While amp circuits may lead to very similar outcomes there are vast differences in power supplies. And Ralphs argument on differential harmonics between Tubes and SS certainly concurs with what I hear