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Vintage tubes - facts, science, technology & empirical evidence VS. marketing, myth & hype

Sorry. Long post. I hope you find the premise interesting and useful. And hope my writing below is not too bone-headed. Please feel free to correct or point out any misstatements or errors in my thinking.

This is not intended to be a controversial thread. At the outset I am not staking out a position. My questions are sincere and are not intended to poke anyone in the eye. The ultimate focus of my question has to do with the performance of vintage tubes as they compare to current production tubes. I am asking because it seems to me that there is a lot of marketing hype & perhaps some myth and wishful thinking when it comes to vintage tubes. There is also a rich body of collective experience. And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command. Of course, the principle of diminishing returns applies here. Right?

Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting performance? To what extent do they predict longevity? Or is longevity primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?

It seems that every company that produces tubes works hard to refine their design and balance innovation with "faithfulness to the vintage design", production processes, materials to make good sounding tubes. Even so, not all tubes from a given factory will perform the same, hence the testing and grading relative to the measures above and the consequent sorting into hierarchies of ascending levels of performance and price.

It also seems to me that performance will be closely tied to the circuit design and execution. A solid design would, it seems, be robust and produce excellent results with a wide range of tubes. A poor design might drive a tube in a way that is hard on the tube or requires a very specific technical characteristic for the circuit to perform well. Either of these situations could cause a user to come to completely different conclusions about what vintage/modern tube is "good" or excellent.

I have read some posts on this forum from certain individuals in which all "modern" or current production tubes or tubes produced by certain countries are dismissed out of hand. This seems like prejudice. Or it could, I suppose, reflect accumulated frustration with a given tube/brand/maker/etc as it performs in a given circuit.

I suppose I’m ultimately asking those who’ve more experience and who have invested more $$$ in tubes and tube rolling across various kinds of equipment to share their experience and opinions.

Thanks, in advance, for your patience. I hope to learn from those who are willing to share.




128x128markusthenaimnut
sns
3,003 posts
 
Vintage tubes were likely produced in much higher quantities, tubes used in nearly every electronic gadget and the war effort. Mass production likely meant more experienced workers producing them and perhaps higher quality control. Durability also extremely important, lots of competition, less durable tubes would be exposed, lose out in marketplace. Add better raw materials in some cases.

Production runs today likely miniscule in comparison, standardization may be harder to achieve. Durability may also be less of a factor for marketplace, with small production runs lack of durability may not be exposed for a long period of time. And today's production tubes are generally only used in audio equipment, not run 24/7 as many tubes had to back in the day.
markusthenaimnut's avatar
markusthenaimnut OP
353 posts
 
Many good points - thanks...

One thing I was hoping to tap into here with my original post was this (quoted from above)...

"There is also a rich body of collective experience. And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command..."

Let me be, perhaps, a little clearer in explaining what I'm thinking. I think it takes years of experience to really know your way around vintage tubes. Without that experience we're relying on others to guide the way. Isn't that one of the purposes of this Forum? To share our experience?

It seems to me that the names of certain trusted sellers of vintage tubes come up over and over again. Such as Vintage Tube Services, Brent Jesse and Upscale Audio (who also sell current production tubes). These guys have a lot of experience. And there are a few trusted sellers on ebay. Then there are sellers who are simply ignorant. And there are sellers who are willfully deceptive or dishonest.

I was hoping to hear stories from experienced listeners, about which tubes really delivered the goods and which tubes ultimately proved disappointing.


tvad's avatar
tvad
11,462 posts
 
I was hoping to hear stories from experienced listeners, about which tubes really delivered the goods and which tubes ultimately proved disappointing.


In a nutshell, I have tried many of the 6DJ8 and 12AU7 tubes on the list below, and my observations largely match those of Joe.

If you’re not familiar with Joe’s Tube Lore, then check it out.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/joes-tubes.html
tablejockey
3,772 posts
 
"Instead of writing this post you should buy some tubes, compare them, and decide for yourself."

jperry's suggestion sums it up. This is audiophoolery-just try something. 

Read the particular tube user reviews. Like everything else, it may or may not align with your actual experience. The ol YMMV prevails with tube experimentation.

atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,577 posts
 
Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting performance? To what extent do they predict longevity? Or is longevity primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?
The book specs, to which tubes have to adhere, don't tell the whole story. There is science to the construction of tubes and its also a bit of an art. A guy on the assembly line could tell if the getters were being over-fired and could adjust things to correct for it. Most of those people are retired or passed on so the tube people in the business now have to reinvent the wheel. For example the Russians are still after all this time having troubles making small signal triodes that don't have microphonic problems and grid contamination problems leading to rejections and early failure. The Chinese OTOH often over-fire their getters which damages elements in the tube decreasing reliability. We've seen poor cathode coatings which flake off like old house paint, causing the power tubes to be susceptible to arcing.

Vintage tubes were simply built to higher standards.
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