Holographic Soundstage ?


I would like to share my observation and hopefully get some input from people who have the same interest.

My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.

I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.

If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.

128x128viethluu
The idea of tubes being holographic is a broad generalization and is highly specific to the individual component and the result of the whole system. All components matter. .

Yes, keep them for a while, you need at least 200 hours on it before the component starts sounding like it should (usually 400 or more to fully break in)... keep it going when you are awake. But definitely return it if it doesn’t do exactly what you want. In that case you got a chance to really learn about a component in detail. To me it takes a couple weeks of listening to music (not to the system sound) to understand what a component sounds like.
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The end result you want is a perfectly reasonable one. But it is going to take a lot of work... reading, listening at dealers, and experimenting. The sound you are looking for is balancing a system on a knife edge of tonal balance to have enough high end detail but not be harsh and really quite background. The most holographic systems I have heard were based on Wilson speakers... although they by no means are the only speakers good at it. But... it is every piece of equipment and the interconnects that will get you where you want to go.
Your speakers at 91dB are not awful but are below my (admittedly totally arbitrary) cutoff of 92dB that anyone should consider before buying any speaker. But plenty of others are in the same boat and getting great sound so that is not the real issue here. 

I am with you on holographic imaging, it is probably the most compelling thing you can have going for you in a great hi-end system. Only problem, nothing out of the box new has awesome holographic imaging. Instead, the sound you get early on is always out of focus. How much and how bad is relative and all over the map. 

But the good news is if the component is any good- which the Blackhawk certainly is - this will improve rapidly. I doubt you will be waiting any 100 hours for it to impress.

Now in terms of what can make it even a whole lot better, tube amps because of the way they work are particularly sensitive to vibration. The electrons physically travel across a vacuum between metal plates. You can see the darn things in action! The tubes stick up out of the amp. It is like putting something sensitive on top of a pole. Any vibration at the base is exaggerated by being out on the end of the pole. And these metal plates, they are sending and receiving our signal. Obviously even tiny micro vibrations are going to mess that up, big time.

They do. That is why one of the better things you can do is put the amp on Townshend Podiums. I did with mine and the improvement was shocking. Greater image focus, speakers disappear even more, blacker backgrounds, better macro-dynamics, and a lot better micro-dynamics. Subtle details just pop out now, individual threads of instruments are now easy to hear even within complex loud music. 

But mostly I think your Blackhawk just needs more time. Keep playing and see how you feel another 10-20-40 hours from now.
But mostly I think your Blackhawk just needs more time. Keep playing and see how you feel another 10-20-40 hours from now.
I will run the Blackhawk for the next two weeks. Might be they will change. Experience told me that if an equipment cannot impress me the first day or two, it will never do so, no matter how much it will break-in. But, we will see...

"...The sound you are looking for is balancing a system on a knife edge of tonal balance to have enough high end detail but not be harsh..."

Let the amp run in for a few hours, they do gain focus after the new tubes get some hours on them. Also changing the pre-amp tubes can gain good results so if you keep the amp it can be better than it is today. The Krells are good amps so it will take the right tube amp with the right tubes to get up to that level. 
"The idea of tubes being holographic is a broad generalization and is highly specific to the individual component and the result of the whole system. ALL components matter."     Including: good tubes, output power and time in operation (as mentioned by some).