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Benefit of a Newer (Used) DAC - "Bang for the Buck?"

Despite having a SO who fails to understand why anyone would spend more than $100 on a “radio,” I’ve managed (over several years) to covertly assemble a fairly decent home audio system.  (My prize acquisition being a $500 set of LN Belle Klipsch loudspeakers off CraigsList).

At any rate, relying on quality used equipment that is past its technological “expiration date” has, under the circumstances, served me reasonably well. However, I’m now to the point where I’d like to (again) update several components – namely, the DAC.  

I’m currently running a Cambridge CXC transport through a Genesis digital lens and a Muse Model Two DAC – both of which, while fully functional, are fairly dated.  Realistically, how much noticeable impact can I expect from a newer (used) DAC – like a Bryston BDA-2 or MHDT Pagoda (for example)?  FWIW, my current setup does everything I need it to (i.e., play Red Book CDs).

In advance, thanks for any advice/feedback.

tds3371
jjss49's avatar
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jjss49
6,610 posts
 
op

bang for buck - get an mhdt nos r2r tubed unit (all current units are, but some of their past units are not) - that plus an upgraded tube will be the most natural dimensional lovely un-digital sound for $ spent

i went through almost 30 dacs in the past year to learn what the well reputed suspects have to offer, and that is my conclusion - not the best dac, but the best sounding ones for the $ to my ears, in my system (under a grand)

and good job managing the s.o. :)
rareace
113 posts
 
@cal3713 Well at 5x the price difference between the two DAC's I just wasn't blown away. I purchased the EVO B4B with a slew of upgrades to the analog sections. The Mojo had better micro details, cleaner dynamics, and slightly larger soundstage. But the BP was just so much more organic sounding for the type of music I like. No doubt the Mojo is better in many ways but not enough to justify the huge price difference. Honestly I just like the way the BP presents music. An analogy is like driving an old, manual sports car vs new sports cars. The new stuff is very impressive at first but I'll take the vintage stuff all day any day. Just so satisfying. I guess at the end of the day the law of diminishing returns was just constantly on my mind so I sent it back. Don't miss it one bit.
-Alex
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cal3713
1,421 posts
 
Interesting.  Thanks so much for the information. 

I've been slowly working on a conspiracy theory that I prefer equipment with a 2nd harmonic distortion profile.  You can read about Nelson Pass's experience with 2nd vs. 3rd dominate equipment.  He designs both and says that a negative second harmonic creates the perception of slight warmth and 3-dimensionality while the 3rd creates the perception of increased detail and clarity.  He even has designs where you can change the balance between two transistors to vary the distortion from 2nd to 3rd and listen to the change in presentation.  I think it was his finding that about a third of audiophiles prefer each and 1/3 don't differentiate.  

With a triode based output section, I believe my Audio Mirror presents a 2nd dominate profile and that the accompanying warmth and 3-dimensionality makes the music sound more natural and real on my system.  Being a balanced design the Holo May eliminates all even harmonics, so it's 3rd dominant and indeed sounded very clean and detailed, but loses a touch of that warmth and dimensionality.  

I tried to ask Ben at Mojo about his dac, but he wouldn't tell me what the distortion profile looks like.  I tried looking at the layout, but was a bit confused about the op-amps and how the different OAs related to the single ended vs. balanced outputs. I guess he's just moved to a pure class A output section, so maybe once I see a picture of that I'll be able to tell if it's a fully balanced output stage or not. 
tds3371 OP
49 posts
 

So, I began this thread, and feel compelled to offer a brief update on my thought process thus far.  Incidentally, I truly appreciate all the good feedback folks have provided; it's a little troubling to make a purchase without personal listening experience, but that's kind of the reality of things for me (and perhaps others) right now.  Still, there is a lot of "research" that one can do in hopes of providing some guidance (although finding consensus is entirely another matter).

First, I'm generally a tube guy - which has tended to work well with my horn loudspeakers.  For this reason, I've found the Tubador, MHDT, Black Ice (Jolida) and Border Patrol DACs to be most interesting.  However, they all lack balanced outputs - which I would like.  (At an added cost, these can be had on the Tubador and MHDT models).  Upgraded tubes, if required, are yet another expense to consider.

Among the non-tube alternatives, the Denafrips Ares II and Pontus (the latter is outside my current price range) seem to be among the most "analog" sounding non-tube DACs.  Since both my primary and dedicated headphone amps are both SETs, I figure these will probably sound OK in my system (indeed, the added virtues of "layering" harmonic distortion is intriguing).

For me, one attraction of the Ares II is price.  At ~$775 (USD) for a brand new warranted unit, it packs a lot of risk-free performance into a relatively small package.  The fact that there are currently far more audio ads seeking than selling Denafrips DACs also suggests it might be fairly easy to upgrade to the Pontus at some future point. (Yes, I know. We're a notoriously fickle lot - and this could easily change overnight).

I would add the RME ADI-2 into this same group offering > "bang for the buck."  However, it just has a lot of features I'd not likely use - and I don't need the pre- or headphone amp function.  Otherwise, this unit would be further near the top of my non-tube DAC list.

It all continues to be a learning experience.  All in all, the number of fairly affordable, high quality DACs now available is a not a bad "problem" to have.

Terry

cal3713's avatar
cal3713
1,421 posts
 
@tds3371 Thanks for the update.  One thing to think about in regards to the balanced outputs.  As I noted above, if the dac has a true balanced design, it may not produce the sound profile you're used to with your SET amplifiers.  Single-ended triodes produce second harmonic dominant distortion profiles (although the 3rd can become dominant as they are pushed to the top of their operating point). 

If the dac you're going to audition has been tested by ASR, that can be a good source to check and see what the distortion profile looks like and see if it's similar to what you're used to with your SET amps.
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