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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
audiokinesis
2,713 posts
 
Oz, you are quite welcome.

Cleeds wrote:

" But that is exactly the claim that some have made: "

Do you really mean "EXACTLY"?

Because imo that is open to dispute. Not that I necessarily think squabbling about the meanings and implications of words and sentences will settle anything. 

How about this: 

Cleeds, can you articulate the core of what your objection is? THAT might be worth talking about, as we might be able to reach mutual understanding.

Duke
mitch2
3,683 posts
 
@tyray
Your above quote from Aerial’s Michael Kelly is very similar to a multiple sub white paper excerpt here:
Earl Geddes was Manager of Advanced Audio at Ford Motor Company here in Michigan and has a PhD in Acoustics, while his wife (and partner in their mostly dormant company GedLee) Lidia has a PhD in Audiology and teaches at Eastern Michigan University. Earl’s Ph.D thesis was on the acoustics of low frequencies in small rooms, so he should know a thing or two about subwoofers and bass behavior in audio rooms.
If you want a fun read, take a look at their Dagogo interview from June of 2012. Below the link, I have included some interesting quotes from the interview that apply to the issues discussed in these Audiogon threads every week.
https://www.dagogo.com/an-interview-with-dr-earl-geddes-of-gedlee-llc/
Quotes from the interview:
  • Perception is what we want to know, but since these are human perceptions there is a huge array of external biases that get involved.
  • But the real point here is that someone is not a good judge of sound quality just because they think that they are –
  • I came to conclude that the more someone claimed to be a “golden ear” the less likely it was that they actually were.
  • For the most part I have found that most audio dogma and folklore is simply incorrect. Audio is like a religion, most aspects of its fundamental beliefs are accepted on faith and most supporting rational is constructed in such a way as to be untestable.
  • Uncontrolled listening tests won’t get you there, that much is certain. These types of tests have a strong bias towards change for change’s sake (among numerous others) and as such have a tendency to go in circles.
  • After working in this area for a long time, I have concluded that the very common phrase “I know what I hear!” is simply incorrect. The fact is that people do not have reliable perceptual capabilities when it comes to sound quality. .....Many people will completely discount any and all scientific facts if they contradict a closely held personal belief.
audiokinesis
2,713 posts
 
Mitch2 wrote: 

" Earl’s Ph.D thesis was on the acoustics of low frequencies in small rooms, so he should know a thing or two about subwoofers and bass behavior in audio rooms."  

Earl was my mentor, and I use an early version of his ideas about distributed multisub systems, with his permission. 

Duke
tomic601's avatar
tomic601
12,753 posts
 
Let’s clear up a few things, Vandersteen has been offering a unique powered bass system w 11 bands of Analogue EQ for at least 20 years now. Of course as an advocate of real science Richard is familiar w Geddes research and his own that formed the basis of his unique design. In fact those paying attention will remember Richard passing his congratulations on to Duke for his work and award. You can of course use multiple subs in the Vandersteen ecosystem of high passed speakers with built in or external subs. Perhaps some will recall system 9 subs at Munich ( best of show sound ).
The Vandy way preserves the transfer function of your main amp, has more cut than boost, the 11 band EQ is NOT octave based but based on empirical sampling of typical listening room nodes, and super importantly designed to give fantastic bass at the listening position ( gee where the rest of the stereo image is - for a company fanatical about time and phase since 1977 imaging is a super high priority. Finally in my system photos you can see an RTA photo of bass fundamentals and harmonics.... image destruction starts  below 200 HZ, so you might want to watch that sub integration and placement carefully.
oh ya, of course I have heard a DBA :-)
tyray
562 posts
 
What I don’t understand is why do people on this site always verbally attack Duke for just being a businessman, entrepreneur and fellow Agon poster?

You don’t have to try, buy or use the swarm, but all the keyboard internet negativity is not warranted and shows some lack of civility.

What ever happened to just having discussions amongst adults who enjoy this hobby? You don’t have to have the swarm or even like the swarm, but to attack Duke for trying to make a living everytime this subject comes up? Is nothing more but and act of hiding behind your moniker cowardice.

I know some posters here can be abrasive, but sometimes it just takes the bigger man to be just that. The bigger man. Don’t attack Duke on account of or for the sake of others.

I was really hoping that there maybe some sort of down to earth shootout? Or are you guys just gonna flap your gums at Duke? Some of you guys take the fun out of every subwoofer thread every time the words swarm or subwoofer is brought up.

I like to bring something positive to this thread and congratulate Duke on his hard work to be an engineer, salesman, tech, phone person and everything else it takes to run a business. 

And everytime the swarm is brought up here in Agon I do see new customers that have bought your swarm and report their experiences back to us here on Agon.


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