Duke has a really good post somewhere that addresses a lot of these same questions. Easiest way to find it is just look through all posts by audiokinesis. For myself, I think you answered your own question. why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? This is indeed the million dollar question. Surely no one with the room, who takes the time to compare, would ever choose anything else. No one has. No one ever will. The difference is so night and day that Duke had one customer with a $30k subwoofer budget decide to buy the Swarm. Not even a $30k sub can match a $3k Swarm. So there’s your answer. They make a whole lot more money selling people on the idea of one sub being the answer. If you take the cynical approach, which I do, then it would be even dumber for them to sell a DBA. Because since we all know no one or two subs can ever touch a DBA, then not only do the high-end dealers make money selling you the one sub that can’t work, they get to sell you another. And another. And another. And EQ. And more amps. And room treatments. There’s simply way more money to be made selling audiophiles things that don’t work than things that do. Especially if they first sell you on a good story. Which since you already know DBA works, and yet is not widely adopted, then you know how good they are at selling audiophiles on stories. And that’s the real answer to your question. Why would anyone buy a sub? They don’t. They buy a story. |
REL seems to be moving more into the multiple sub arena with their stackable S line. The interviews with John Hunter suggest that they believe in bass originating from different points in space, including height.
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as a dealer with 30+ Years experience i love to talk about the application of real world solutions A swarm would sound better than one or two subs most people do nothave the room or desire to have 4 subwoofer boxes in the room along with a pair of main loud speakers So the reality is swarms almost never come up based on practicality vs performance In fact we are now importing a line of suberb subwoofers from the uk that are better than Rel and are the ideal partner for a monitor as the subwoofers that are tall enough to allow a high end monitor to sit on top of the wooofers https://mjacoustics.co.uk/kensingtonhttps://mjacoustics.co.uk/reference-series-list/reference-1-mk4/Dave and troy Audio intellect Us importer Mj acoustics |
Many of the issues addressed by multi-subwoofer setups are also addressed by dipole bass designs. Dipole systems may not go as deep, but they can be more accurate.
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Many systems have a relatively small “sweet spot”. Adding a swarm might distribute the bass across the room better but the rest is largely directional and best heard in that sweet spot. You only need one sub to get the bass filled very well typically in a single listening spot.
Audio Kinesis (Duke) is also very knowledgeable and big on sound dispersion in general and I believe tries to enlarge that sweet spot with his designs. When that is the case ( a larger sweet listening area) the case for a more evenly distributed bass is also better.
Someone mentioned dipole speakers being less susceptible to bass nodes. I use Ohm Walsh speakers which are pseudo-omnidirectional (very wide but controlled dispersion with all but the highest frequencies) with a vertically mounted bass driver and that approach too seems to do well in of itself so speaker design is also a factor for how well bass gets distributed. |
A dipole bass is great but only if the backside is in phase with the front. |
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Ay carumba! The rear output of a dipole sub (or woofer, or any driver, in fact) being in polarity opposite to that of the front is inherent in all dipole woofers. The reason for that is obvious. The rear wave coming back to the woofer after it bounces off the wall behind it needs to be timed (1 ft. = approximately 1 ms.) so that the front and rear waves are in phase by the time they reach the listening location. There is a side null created on either side of the dipole sub frame, where the front and back waves---being opposite in polarity---cancel each other, just as they do in all dipole loudspeakers (ESL’s, Maggies and ET’s, etc.). This prevents the dipole sub from exciting the room's width dimension modes. The A370 plate amp used in the Rythmik/GR Research OB/Dipole Sub includes a continuously-variable phase control providing phase rotation from 0 degrees (0 ms) to 180 degrees (16 ms). This makes possible locating the OB/Dipole Sub optimized for all considerations other than phase, then using the phase control to optimize the phase between the sub and the loudspeakers. The phase rotation mimics moving the sub physically. |
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My Aerial SW12 subs are supposed to be pretty good but going from one sub to two made a huge difference in overall sound quality for the better. The improvements seem to affect the entire frequency range and not just the bass. Below is a quote from Aerial’s Michael Kelly. One SW12 provides satisfying high quality mono bass. Two SW12's produce more realistic stereo bass, higher levels, and better smoothness. Three SW12's add front / rear information and truly envelope the listener in bass. Based on my experience going from one sub to two, as well as what I have read about the subject, I would like to try adding a third SW12 placed asymmetrically in the room. If I were starting over, I would definitely try Duke’s Swarm Subwoofer System but as @erik_squires points out, you need to be willing to have four additional boxes in your room. Eric, I read your blog and am curious whether you have heard the Swarm System and, if so, what were your listening impressions? I understand not trusting products with over the top fan boys but that is different from actually trying something and not liking how it sounds. |
Northman wrote:
"My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not?"
@audiotroy replied:
"[While] a swarm would sound better than one or two subs, most people do not have the room or desire to have 4 subwoofer boxes in the room along with a pair of main loud speakers. So the reality is swarms almost never come up based on practicality vs performance."
I think this is the answer, or at least most of it. (For the record the footprint of each sub in the Swarm is only one square foot, but the number of boxes is still an issue.)
Mitch2 wrote:
"Eric, I read your blog and am curious whether you have heard the Swarm System and, if so, what were your listening impressions? I understand not trusting products with over the top fan boys but that is different from actually trying something and not liking how it sounds."
Bingo.
Duke
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In a nutshell this is an education thing and nothing more.
Those that denigrate a distributed bass array are apparently simply ignorant of its advantages. Many dealers don't sell them, so their comments can be sidelined safely enough.
If your front speakers actually make bass, then what you do is add a pair of subs elsewhere in the room to break up the standing waves that often cause bass cancellation at the listening chair.
Like many industries (such as bicycles) much is ruled by tradition in audio. New ideas and breakthroughs thus tend to exist only on the fringe while the mainstream flows fat dumb and happy using established or 'more profitable' tech that simply doesn't bring home the bacon. It seems to be human nature. I can give a nice example- derailluers in bicycles are a terrible idea. Essentially its a transmission where everything is exposed and as a result they are unreliable. A chain might only last 1200 miles- compared to a car or motorbike bicycles seem really unreliable- you'd think that after 120 years we'd have sorted that out, and in fact we have with internally geared hubs (the Rohloff being the best of them) and the Pinion gearbox which is mounted in the frame. Both of the latter dramatically more reliable than any derailleur and usually wider gear range. I got my first Rohloff about 15 years ago- back then no-one had heard of them. Even now, most people heavily into bikes still don't know what a Rohloff (or a Pinion) is. Its the same with a distributed bass array. They work **way** better than the prior art, but most people don't know what it is, and some that do resist almost purely out of tradition (substitute 'stubbornness' for 'tradition' and the meaning of this sentence is unchanged).
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Hey @mitch2
Fair question. I've not heard the swarm. I've heard a lot of subs though, and most of them sounded horrible. I've heard a handful of well integrated subs which were spectacular.
My point in writing that piece was that a single or dual sub can be amazing, if used well, as well as that full-range systems can sound far better than they do with the right room treatment. The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence.
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@Erik_squires wrote:
"
The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any
possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence."
This is what's called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy. Here's the definition for anyone not familiar with the term:
"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."
Duke
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Bass becomes more directional at higher frequencies so if sub is covering higher bass frequencies there is advantage to two subs located near speakers for better stereo imaging same as if teh woofers in the main were covering those. Different reason for two versus 1 than DBA. |
Check out a sub like this Klipsch I use with KEF ls50’s: https://www.klipsch.com/products/sw-308-subwoofer Forward firing active driver + two passive radiators one firing left and one firing right. That provides some bass distribution benefits similar to multiple subs in an array but from a single compact box. Something to consider for those interested in the bass array concept but not fond of the idea of having to tackle multiple physical subs. Not the same thing but a step in that direction that is no harder than any other single box sub to set up. A "swarm" of 3 in 1 per se. |
audiokinesis@Erik_squires wrote:
" The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence."
This is what’s called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy. Here’s the definition ... No, it’s not a straw man argument at all, because some of these "swarm" advocates have argued just that, and have done so repeatedly. Here’s one just from this thread :millercarbon Surely no one with the room, who takes the time to compare, would ever choose anything else. No one has. No one ever will. The difference is so night and day that Duke had one customer with a $30k subwoofer budget decide to buy the Swarm. Not even a $30k sub can match a $3k Swarm.
So there’s your answer ... Because since we all know no one or two subs can ever touch a DBA, then not only do the high-end dealers make money selling you the one sub that can’t work, they get to sell you another ... sinnce you already know DBA works, and yet is not widely adopted, then you know how good they are at selling audiophiles on stories ... Why would anyone buy a sub? They don’t. They buy a story |
People who are in the business of selling are going to promote what they sell, and more often than not, are going to downplay products that they do not sell. Is there a single Magico dealer in the world who would tell you that Wilson makes better speakers? As far as "fanboy" comments that may appear hyperbolic, I suspect most of us can empathize with a person who has worked hard and long to optimize their system, who are eloquent in praise of a key element in that painful optimization effort. I rarely take anything I read on Audiogon as gospel truth. You just need to temper what you read sometimes. I have a dedicated listening room that I have been working on for a while. I've carefully optimized speaker and main listening position, and added a fair amount of room treatment. The room is an order of magnitude better than it was when I started, but I've gone as far as those efforts can take me. Further improvements will require equalization or a distributed bass array. I made a decision to give the Swarm system a try after reading the Earl Geddes publications that explain the theoretical underpinnings of the distributed array approach. I'm still waiting for delivery, so I can't comment based on experience, but in my view, Ralph hit the nail on the head. Those that denigrate a distributed bass array are apparently simply ignorant of its advantages. Many dealers don't sell them, so their comments can be sidelined safely enough. The DBA approach just makes too much sense for anyone to dismiss a priori, especially if that dismissal comes from someone who makes a ton of money selling REL subs. I'm still waiting for delivery of the Swarm, so I can't comment based on experience. The Swarm may not do what I am hoping it will do, but if it does not significantly improve bass response in my particular room, that doesn't invalidate the approach. There are no products that are the right choice for every situation. |
Even Richard Vandersteen believes that multiple subs are better than one or two.
PM ctsooner. He spoke with Mr. V. about this not long ago.
Though I have to say the new Sub 3 with equalization will probably be very close to multiple subwoofers.
I will be ordering them for myself, soon.
Bob |
Off topic - @atmasphere
and in fact we have with internally geared hubs (the Rohloff being the best of them) and the Pinion gearbox which is mounted in the frame. No kidding....
Rohloff 14-speed German Speedhub and Pinion 12-speed gearbox.....my Dura Ace have been absolutely reliable but man, those two internal hubs are sweet!
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“A swarm would sound better than one or two subs most people do nothave the room or desire to have 4 subwoofer boxes in the room along with a pair of main loud speakers
So the reality is swarms almost never come up based on practicality vs performance”
Bingo!
In my room, I am more than content with a pair of mid-size REL’s. |
@Erik_squires wrote:
" The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence."
This is what’s called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy. Here’s the definition for anyone not familiar with the term:
"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."
Duke Actually Eric is correct in the idea that it does not fix the room. This swarm idea. It overwhelms the problems and buries it under noise, in an area where the human ear is least sensitive. Like Styx said, "you’re fooling yourself if you don’t believe it..." First, Fix the room. Fix the room Fix the room Fix the room Fix the room. Can’t say it enough times. Fix the room. Acoustics. But not enough people know how or can supply the material to do so. I’ve been standing by the side of someone who can fix the room and is many times called in to be the given acoustical and noise control ’cooler’ to the given acoustical company’s ’bouncer’. Where the bouncers, any and all of them (sometimes 4 companies in a row), can’t get the job done. None will guarantee their work. Taras guarantees his work, contractually. Unique, for the most part, in the entire acoustics business.
But he can and invariably does get it done.There is a reason that almost every single time Teo Audio is involved in a hotel room at a show.... it captures ’best of show’. The stories I could tell you. But he won’t allow me to tell them. |
Rohloff 14-speed German Speedhub and Pinion 12-speed gearbox.....my Dura
Ace have been absolutely reliable but man, those two internal hubs are
sweet! @mitch2 Try taking that Dura Ace on the Tour Divide Mountain Bike Route (google or search on Yourtube) and see how it holds up. If you are careful with it, it can do well, but if you ignore it, it will go away :) So the reality is swarms almost never come up based on practicality vs performance I think this might be the case for now. But as we are seeing, the question is coming up a lot more now than 10 years ago when Duke got his first Golden Ear Award (now there are three). In terms of practical- the distributed bass array concept is **very** practical in the Audiokinesis embodiment, as the subs are built to be as small as possible (1 foot square by 2 feet) and to be placed inside the room boundary effect, which most subs are not (Duke told me that he often places the speaker on its side with the woofer facing the wall, an inch or two away). This allows them true 20Hz response. In a small room its fairly easy to place them and keep them innocuous. Bass traps are far less effective and a lot harder to hide! In terms of performance they also shine as they are several times more effective than room treatment for dealing with pesky standing waves which rob you of bass at the listening chair- or give you a bass boom. You get much closer to simply flat response right to 20Hz anywhere in the room. Its highly unlikely that anyone with a single or dual sub system can say that although they may have what they experience as 'satisfying' bass. This means that the main speakers don't have to be very large (practicality- they only need go down to 70Hz or so) or hard to drive (practicality- now you don't need such a big amp) and yet no reason to take a back seat to anyone's system in terms of bandwidth and resolution (performance). |
Subwoofers are a hard sell to begin with never mind four. WAF, cost, wiring, etc. Hi Fi people have a bad impression of subwoofer because most setups are not great. The theater people don't care, They just want to feel their seat shaking.
bdp24, dipole subwoofers are a bad joke. You are right that sound travels at about 1 foot/msec. If you place the subwoofer a certain distance from a wall the reflected sound will only be exactly in phase at one frequency. Everywhere else will be out of phase creating even more interference patterns. It is just a cheap easy way to make a defective subwoofer.
For point source systems the swarm concept is ideal as long as the crossover point is below 100 Hz preferably 80 Hz. The swarm limits room interaction giving you the same volume throughout the room. With a single subwoofer the volume can change 10 db in only 3 feet! Here great bass, there nothing.
For linear arrays or line sources the situation changes and depends on the type of driver used. In order to radiate power the way a line source does you have to create a subwoofer linear array which involves placing subwoofers at intervals across a wall into corners. ESLs do better with higher cross over points 120-125 Hz. This stops the diaphragm from taking long excursions and limits distortion. For other Line sources a lower crossover between 80 and 100 Hz will do fine.
In all cases digital bass management is handily the best way to integrate a subwoofer system.
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Cleeds wrote: "No, it’s not a straw man argument at all, because some of these "swarm"
advocates have argued just that, and have done so repeatedly. Here’s one
just from this thread..."
As far as I can tell, Erik's complaint arises entirely from his personality conflict with ONE person, millercarbon.
To the best of my knowledge Erik has yet to attack the merits of the distributed multisub concept directly, instead putting words into the mouths of its advocates and calling them "cultists", skirting Audiogon's rules by doing so in a blog post that he routinely links to.
Duke
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Teo audio wrote: " First, Fix the room. Fix the room Fix the room Fix the room Fix the room. Can’t say it enough times. Fix the room." For some highly experienced perspective, I invite you to click on the link below. Once you get past the ad, listen for about 30 seconds from where it’s cued up. Matthew Poes is speaking, and he is a professional acoustician. His JOB is "Fix the room". He gets PAID to "Fix the room." He DOES NOT get paid to sell or promote subwoofers, whether singly or in multiples: https://youtu.be/shHY7EHY4MA?t=2257
Teo, I’m not saying that YOU are not highly experienced, nor that room treatment isn’t extremely beneficial. Nor am I saying that it’s either/or. BUT in the subwoofer region "Fix the room" is much easier said than done, and a distributed multi-sub system apparently has considerable merit. Acoustician Matthew Poes uses stronger language than that.
Duke
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atmasphere nailed it. But at this point anyone shouting fix the room or ya need bass "management" (whatever that is) is simply not paying attention. Its like there's still guys saying cables are tone controls, fuses don't make any difference, etc. Its not just a river in Egypt, guys.
But we know, the OP said we know, we aren't looking for that. What we're looking for is why sellers keep pushing the same old same old when we all know it doesn't work. And I've given one answer. But there's another even worse one: Buyers get the sellers they deserve.
Anyone wondering why sellers aren't working harder to inform and educate and sell what actually works need look no further than this thread. Because here we have a whole bunch of supposedly dedicated audiophiles presented with the most iron clad fool-proof solution in all of audio, and most of them are like "lalalalala I don't hear you fix the room lalalala bass management lalalalal REL... I'm not listening."
Irrefutable evidence, meet immovable opinion. That's why they aren't selling what actually works. Its just too darn hard getting audiophiles to actually think and try something new.
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northman:"
My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)"
Hello northman,
I understand you're confusion, hesitancy and numerous good questions. When I initially learned of the 4-sub distributed bass array concept about 6 yrs ago through reading about the results of research on the use of multiple subs by Earl Geddes, Floyd Toole and Todd Welti, my thoughts were much the same as yours.
I actually learned about the effectiveness of the 4-sub DBA concept prior to discovering that Audio Kinesis offered two very similar, complete kit versions of the concept in their Swarm and Debra products for $2,800 at that time ( I think it's currently priced at slightly more).
In fact, I was initially planning on buying a pair of JL Audio F113 and a pair of F110 subs to try out this concept, for a total price of $15,000, before learning of the AK Swarm and Debra at considerably less. Of course, saving so much money was my main incentive but AK's offer, of a free in-home 30 day trial period, made my decision to buy the Debra a real no-brainer bass bargain buy.
When I first experienced the bass performance of my AK Debra 4-sub DBA in my system and room a little over 5 yrs ago, I felt like I was being let in on a big home audio secret and like I won the bass performance lotto. I remember thinking: Why had it taken me so long to learn of this excellent bass solution concept and product?
Why wasn't this concept more widely discussed and utilized, especially by members of a high-end audio site like Audiogon?
I know my very positive and early experiences listening to the 4-sub Debra DBA, which has not diminished in the last 5+ years, has caused me to be a very enthusiastic supporter of this concept and to often attempt to spread the word on its remarkable effectiveness on this forum ever since. I don't apologize for this, realize Duke/audiokinesis remains the foremost authority on the swarm/DBA concept on this forum and believe the increased discussions on this forum about this concept and multiple subs in general are beneficial to all.
And you asked:"
My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing?
I think many high-end stores do embrace the concept of multiple inexpensive subs, but I also think millercarbon was correct about money and profit margins and that dealers more likely embrace the concept of
one expensive sub and really adore the concept of multiple expensive subs. Hsw had a good point about REL and other sub companies starting to endorse the concept of multiple subs or stacks, too. It's not hard to figure out why, right?
You also asked: "Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get .. the swarm?
"
If someone chooses to use a single sub, no matter its size, brand, quality or cost, rather than at least a pair of good quality subs, IMHO, they're most likely doing so due to a lack of knowledge and experience. There's also the possibility that they're just blindly accepting some bad, but obviously trusted, advice. I think we'd probably learn more on why by listening to their answers to this question.
I can state with certainty, based on personal knowledge and experience, that 2 subs will perform about twice as well as a single sub and that 4 subs will perform about twice as well as a pair of subs. I also believe, however, that you shouldn't take my word for anything I've stated on this post. I think we all generally learn the most and best through personal experience.
My shared Home Audio Deep Thought for the Day is that much personal audio knowledge gained is less about absolute truths and more about personal, subjective preferences.
Best of wishes to you grasshopper,
Tim |
"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making." I think the real issue here is you are unable to separate criticism of your fans from criticism of your tech, or alternately defending all your fans but as I type this I remember we are retreating an endless debate about who can and who cannot (or will not?) read nuance and detail. The beauty of a blog like that is not having to retread old arguments. I’m going to let it speak for itself more, and clarify it less. Best, E |
Here's a quick note from the sidelines, thanking you all for the informative and spirited responses to my questions. Truly engaging. Because I love good prose almost as much as I love good music, I also want to thank Tim (noble100) for his generous and insightful writing. I have a few more questions but I think I'll put them away for now and just express my appreciation. Thanks!
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Erik, you are too good to hang your hat on name-calling and too smart to treasure your grievances.
Why not talk tech instead?
Duke
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I own speakers with 7 inches bass driver...
With acoustic ACTIVE devices controls and not only PASSIVE materials treatment, they gives me so much bass which i feel with my stomach that i disconnected my sub....
( A sub was not a good idea for me because too difficult to make it right and i realize that on the spot, but i bought it thinking my speakers were not adequate in the bass region and i was wrong like i realized AFTER my room controls treatment and active devices )
Acoustic of the room is the most underestimated factor in audio with the general noise floor of the house....Active acoustic devices controls seems totally unknown , sellers prefer to sells costly materials for passive treatment but they cannot do by themselves alone what active controls can do in difficult small room with an irregular geometry and a complex acoustical content.... :)
For example how do we use reverberations in a positive way to make the sound more alive with only a passive treatment? No way, it takes active acoustical control devices....Cancelling ALL reverberations is not the right answer at all....
I dont doubt that 4 subs are better than only one tough..... But i dont feel the need for them now with cello listening, or piano....And my room will not accept the 4 boxes, being too small....And anything i cannot replicate myself is too much money for my purse anyway....
I post here only to mention about an unknown side road or alternative underestimated solutions...
If i was selling subs i would prefer to sell expansive one than 4 cheap one for sure....If i was selling acoustical room treatment i would prefer to sell only costly materials than cheap device active controls....
:)
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@northman
Others have indicated valid possible answers to your question regarding DBAs being (or rather not being) offered at dealers.
So I will just share with you my experience with the Swarm.
My first listening room had a low ceiling and was 10 x 12 minus closets. Of the many subs I tried, none could contribute quality bass response.
As soon as the sub volume was high enough to hear some bass, it was boomy, ringy, etc.
It was like everything was being overwhelmed.
Just over a year ago I asked about a subwoofer solution on this forum and found out about the DBA. Knowing there was absolutely no way I could place 4 subs on the floor in that small room, I decided to pass on it.
Then, I saw a thread about placing one or more of the subs up high facing the ceiling. Not for aesthetics or to save floor space.
The reason was that any ceiling facing subs will contribute to dispersion in the vertical plane.
The next day, I called Duke at AudioKinesis, had a great conversation and ordered a Swarm.
I placed 3 of the subs up high on metal shelving units facing the ceiling and one on the floor next to my desk supporting my lamp.
The one sub on the floor, with such a small footprint is the ONLY additional component taking up space.
AND, it is smaller than your typical sub.
The added storage gained from the metal shelving units actually helped organize some gear while acting as diffusers in each front corner.
The sound honestly amazed me.
I immediately noticed two things.
First:
At most any reasonable volume level, I heard more detail from cellos, bass guitars, etc. This greater detail also extended up into the midrange.
Second:
The sound stage got bigger and fuller.
The holographic (3D?) effect was more convincing.
The speakers I regularly rotate are:
KEF LS50s, B&W 801 Matrix S2s, Ologe 5s, Magnepan LRS and Harbeth SHL5+40th Anniversaries.
Music: mostly classical, jazz and some rock.
Volume level: varies quite a bit
These are 5 significantly different speaker designs.
With the DBA, each of the 5 speakers provided tight, fast and accurate bass along with the bigger soundstage and greater detail.
I have recently moved to a house with a bigger listening room (14 x 16). While this room was being finished, I set up my system in a smaller room (12 x 15).
I am now in the finished larger room and now have 2 subs on the floor.
In all 3 rooms, with all 5 speakers, the DBA noticeably raised the performance in the above mentioned ways.
Interestingly, the DBA provided the greatest percentage of improvement in the smaller room.
I then read some more about the multiple bass source concept and discovered there is science behind why this is so.
Thought it was just my initial excitement.
Hope this helps you with your decision!
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Why don’t you guys (and gals) get together and have a respectful subwoofer shootout? I’m sure you all can find the time during these pandemic times? And I’m sure someone has a audio studio for all of you to use? You can then test each others hypotheses, scientific principles, use the audio test equipment to set up your equipment and record everything for posterity and science.
Come on? Are you kidding me? You’d have the entire AUDIO GLOBE wanting to see this happen similar to a heavyweight prize fight! You could settle this once and for all in a friendly, fun way like you ALL used to do when we were just kids.
Who ever loses buys the beer (or wine) and the experience itself will be videoed. Also you just might make a friend or two in the process. I would rent that video, or well at least check it out on youtube.
And even if you don’t videotape the event at least have the shootout! Know we'll see who'll man up. |
Tyray suggested: "Why don’t you guys (and gals) get together and have a respectful subwoofer shoot out... test each others hypotheses, scientific principles, use the audio test equipment to set up your equipment and record everything for posterity and science." I just re-read the thread and it looks to me like nobody is saying the science behind a distributed multisub system is bogus. Some criticize its advocates, some say dipoles work better (which they do in some ways and not in others) or that fixing the room comes first, and several have said it’s too impractical. But not even Erik’s blog page disputes the technical merits of the idea. Quoting: "To oversimplify, the DBA [Distributed Bass Array] or Audio Kinesis Swarm uses four subwoofers to cancel room modes. Please read details directly from the vendor as I am not a fan and therefore won’t do it justice. "While I was a fan of this idea due to the innovation and possibilities it offered I never really warmed to it due to the physical complexity. For me, I want my system simpler, smaller, and tripling the number of speakers in my home has no appeal at all. I am no longer a fan of this idea due to the fan boys and how cultish they have become." I don’t see any of these objections going away if a distributed multisub system "works as advertised" because none of them are based on the premise that it doesn’t. Duke |
Back when I was still gathering info about sub setups, I mentioned SWARM and DEBRA bass array to the local store where I buy my gear from. I had one sub, then two subs, then new main speakers with no subs and was then looking to go with the DEBRA for my new mains (Tannoy Turnberry Prestige GR’s) The sales person gave me a facial expression which communicated he thought I was over complicating this whole sub thing. After his dismissive glance, he presented: “You only need 2 good REL subs to get the bass right.” I’m glad I didn’t go that route. My setup is different from the standard DEBRA though: I’m still unclear how to setup the phasing on the sub amps since my DEBRA uses 2 Qty of the SA1000 subs amps instead of one to drive the 4 subs. It’s supposed to have some benefit for phasing. All I know is it kicks some serious ass compared to any of my previous setups. Bass issue resolved for me!
I’d bet if Duke and James joined forces with REL, they would sell the crap out of a wireless/ self-powered 4 sub bass array.
And- oh, if REL (masters of all things subwoofer) is selling a sub array $priced it to the moon, then it must be good, right? Be a good little audiophile sheep and just agree with the big guy. Do as they tell you to do: follow instructions blindly. Take your REL subs to the counter and swipe your card on the way out. “Thank you and have a great day.” I think a lot of naysayers follow the well beaten path. That is until some big company realizes they can steal the sub array idea to make it their own, make it more marketable and ultimately scoop up all the cash on the table and screw-over the people who put in the real work to get this distributed bass array out there in the first place. It’s just a matter of time (in my mind) before more people start to climb aboard the DIstributed Bass-Array-party boat. Once a REL or JL jump in to the sub array market, you watch how many they will sell, and also watch the forums flourish with “yes” chatter afterwards.
I forgot who posted it, but I’m game for anyone who wants to do the video for testing 1,2,3 vs 4 subs at my house. I’m always enthusiastic, curious and eager to learn. I’m in Southern California BTW and wear mask/ social distance.
To be clear, I have no pony in this race. I don’t care who wins, I’m in it for the learning experience and to add to my personal knowledge base. Maybe for once someone can put out good advice based on several people’s real life experiences and some kind of measurements instead of forum banter or “professional” reviewers who I simply most of the time do not trust. They are tangled in a conflict of interest and are flawed for this reason.
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Uh -Oh! Looks like we got 2 contestants already! Duke and veerossi. And veerossi wants bring out the big guns - The DEBRA’s! Now I know you all know about the SWARM, but let me introduce you to the DEBRA’s. https://jamesromeyn.com/audiokinesis-speaker-models/debra/ What’s that I hear - crickets? |
@veerossi I’d bet if Duke and James joined forces with REL, they would sell the crap out of a wireless/ self-powered 4 sub bass array. Your comment made me think of two reasons I have not tried a DBA yet, and something Duke (or somebody) could work on to help those of us who already own and use two great sounding subs: - first, I do not want to buy a new 4 sub set-up since I already have two really nice Aerial SW-12 subs
- second, my room is already wired with dedicated electrical lines/outlets and all my system wiring is against one wall
- however, I would be very interested in adding just two subs for the purpose of smoothing out the bass response and more evenly loading the room
- I would also be interested if I could do this without purchasing two more relatively expensive SW-12s but rather if I could use different, less expensive subs
- I would be even more interested if those two additional subs could receive their signal wirelessly since that would take away one of my biggest problems of how to get a signal to them
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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world
@northman, My intention is not to hijack nor misrepresent your stated purpose for this thread but
to do exactly as you ask - for this particular thread. Thank you, for asking the question. |
Your comment made me think of two reasons I have not tried a DBA yet, and something Duke (or somebody) could work on to help those of us who already own and use two great sounding subs:
@mitch2, One of the things I’ve admired about Duke is he has always given advice and instruction on how to place any sub no matter if it’s only 1 or 2 of any sub brand you have and even trying to understand what type of tuning functions you may have on the back of you sub and how to use them. If you do a Agon search you will be surprised at how many threads he has been a part off on what you ask. There's also some links to some 'white' papers that break down the genesis of the distributed array technique that also surprisingly are in layman like terms for easier understanding - check this
out.
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/ |
Yes the debate has nothing to do with if it works or not. .
|
I agree with @mapman. IMHO, it has to with practicality which millercarbon and DBA advocates continues to overlook each time a sub discussion pops up.
Before I get flamed by DBA fanboys let me add, those who can justify 4 subs in their room, DBA probably makes sense. For rest of us, I say this; one sub is better than no sub and two subs is better than one sub.
Peace! |
Yup, the more subs the merrier. I have 1 system with 0 (not needed speakers are essentially full range and no significant bass issues in the room) and one system with one sub. Ho ho ho!
Why not 10? Get on it DBA pioneers! |
Dear Audiogon,
If you need to bring me over to your side, please serve me a heaping hot plate of condescending flattery drizzled with projection.
Best,
E
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is it safe to say we all hate to walk into a hifi store and have the salesman tell us what we should buy or do without even listening to what our needs are and acting accordingly? The ones who do listen and act accordingly are the good ones.
Maybe we can all strive to be more that way here as well. Help others figure out what is best for them not for us.
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People debate without end about electronic piece of gear, 1 or 4 or zero, without almost never informing themselves first about the embeddings... No piece of gear can rival embeddings controls done rightfully....Even and especially in bass section.... For sure if you buy a 100,000 dollars system with 4 subs this will beat my 450 dollars system without one and even with one done right.... I will not argue against that even before listening to it.... There is exception to any law.... My law is dont upgrade anything, embed everything before doing that.... :) This is a very important observation indeed: Help others figure out what is best for them not for us.
Then dont give any money to upgrade before trying to embed your audio system... Necessary upgrading to reach audiophile experience is an half truth only , then, worst than a lie.... I apologize because the topic is the "swarm" not my rant about embedding but...... My best to all.... |
Veerossi wrote: "
My setup is different from the standard DEBRA though: I’m still unclear
how to setup the phasing on the sub amps since my DEBRA uses 2 Qty of
the SA1000 subs amps instead of one to drive the 4 subs. It’s supposed
to have some benefit for phasing.
"
Here is what I suggest:
Drive the two subs on the left-hand-ish side of the room with one amp, and the two on the right-hand-ish side of the room with the other. Set the phase controls on the two amps roughly 90 degrees apart from one another. You may have to go back and fine-tune the low-pass frequency and level controls a bit.
The idea is to synthesize the phase difference at your left and right ears that you might have in a much larger room. This reduces the "small room signature" of the playback room, thus unmasking the acoustic signature of the recording venue, whether it be real or engineered or both. So you hear less of your playback room and more of the recording.
Mitch2 wrote: "
Your comment made me think of two reasons I have not tried a DBA yet,
and something Duke (or somebody) could work on to help those of us who
already own and use two great sounding subs..."
Imo you can add subs to the one or two you already have. They needn't be as large and capable. I do suggest that any subs positioned away from the main speakers, and closer to you than the main speakers, have their top-ends rolled off fairly steeply (24 dB per octave is what I use) no higher than 80 Hz. This is so that they don't pass upper bass/lower midrange energy loud enough to give away their locations.
Lalitk wrote: "
IMHO, it has to [do] with practicality which millercarbon and DBA advocates
continue to overlook each time a sub discussion pops up."
I can't speak for my fellow DBA advocates, but it normally doesn't occur to me include practicality disclaimers.
For anyone in a situation where a distributed multi-sub system is impractical, obviously something else would be a better choice. Maybe something like this:
"
one sub is better than no sub and two subs is better than one sub.
"
(Actually imo one sub may not always be better than no sub - many dipole owners have tried one sub and gone back to no sub.)
Duke |
I can't speak for my fellow DBA advocates, but it normally doesn't occur to me include practicality disclaimers. If you are nothing but a fellow DBA advocate, why is it that you are the only one whose name pops up everytime DBA is mentioned on this forum? Why do you have the right to claim ownership of the DBA concept by using a proprietary name like swarm? |
For anyone in a situation where a distributed multi-sub system is impractical, obviously something else would be a better choice. Maybe something like this:
" one sub is better than no sub and two subs is better than one sub. "
(Actually imo one sub may not always be better than no sub - many dipole owners have tried one sub and gone back to no sub.) I think that one sub "may" be better than no sub in some case, but more often then not, mechanical and electrical embeddings combined with mainly a rightfully done acoustical embeddings make the urge to use a sub obsolete, especially in a small room...Except for heavy metal and cinema for sure.... :) For bigger room probably a "swarm" is certainly interesting....If you listen mainly jazz and classic less interesting tough.... |
The speakers I regularly rotate are:
KEF LS50s, B&W 801 Matrix S2s, Ologe 5s, Magnepan LRS and Harbeth SHL5+40th Anniversaries.
@hleeid, That’s a nice collection of speakers you are rotating. What determines which ones get played? I have ls50s. Interested in your impressions versus others. Thanks. |
