SUT vs. Phono preamp


On what basis is  the decision to chose  a SUT vs. a phonostage made?
boofer
None are Rega; They are Benz Micro Gold, AT 33ev, AT F2, and your favorite Denon103D.


LOL :))

 Haven't tried it yet. I usually use the vintage MMs, but recently wanted to play MCs against each other, which the Aria lets me do easily. MM's: At 12sa, at 440ml, shure v153 and M92e, Micro acoustcs 2002e,,

Never tried those, but my AT20SLa was very nice. 

Stanton 881s, and Empire 2000z, also Goldring 1042, and many more. The Stanton and Empire come in as champions for overall performance.

I can imagine, i tried 881s mkII and 980, you can always upgrade to higher Stanton model, the absolute best is SC-100 WOS (my favorite). 

If you like Stanton do you know that both Stanton and Pickering also available as a low impedance versions with extremely low output (just like MC) ? Here is the manual with specs. 

The Stanton 980LZS and PICKERING XLZ 7500S (AND XLZ4500S) are "low impedance" and will work directly into the Moving Coil (MC) input instead of MM input. It provides extended frequency response well beyond 50kHz. The 980LZS patented moving stylus system featured a Stereohedron nude diamond and ultra-low mass samarium cobalt magnet which allows it to track the highest levels found on the most sophisticated high technology records






Dear @stereo5  : Your SUT evaluation is not fair. The Denon 320 is a vintage SUT vs " today " Bob' SUT and the problem are all that crap of input/output RCA connectors as all the internal used wires because the Denon transformers are good ones with a banwindth of 10hz to 100khz and really flat response and this characteristic is truly important and critical because normally the SUT frequency response is a little restricted.

I own several SUT's and between them I owned the 320 and still own the AU-340 where I don't use any more inputs/outputs connectors but I soldered directly inside the unit the input/output silver signal cables and rewired with silver KK cable inside and know what: it's a challenge for almost any today SUT.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @mikelavigne : ""  there are no absolutes; these concepts depend on degrees of execution. SUT’s are not always better, and head amps are not always worse.

it depends....."""

you are rigth and agree with but ( always exist a : but .) as you said: depends:

a SUT in reality is not totally silent and prone to take almost every kind of external noises coming from other electronics or sometimes rfi/emi and as I said in my other post all SUT's have restricted frequency response.

I own the Denon AU-1000 ( weigths 10kgs. ) that has a flat frequency response between 5hz to 200khz that's really good for a SUT.

Now to connect a SUT to a phono stage we need additional cables and input/output connectors and soldered points down there where th really low and sensitive precious cartridge signal must pass through and all those additional " stones " in the signal path means not only additional distortions but suceptible to pick up in that path other kind of noises.

All those certainly does not happens in an active phonolinepreamp IF that phonolinepreamp has an excellent design and excellent execution to that design, if these happens then the active alternative could be a little better against that Denon AU1000 that is modified for me ( something as what I did it with my 340 by Denon. ).

Nothing is perfect in audio, trade offs everywhere and in this subject perhaps the critical trade off the one more important is that an active phonolinepreamp with those characteristics I mentioned are truly expensive really expensive and only for gentlemans as you.
I own a unit like that but only because a friend of mine and I designed and builded and I have to tell very competitive today with the best out there, obviously not perfect.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
I remember reading this article from Arthur Salvatore many years ago...  and finally i ended up with ZYX CPP-1 Headamp with special transistors made with the same copper wire used in ZYX LOMC cartridges for coil winding. I screwed up my CPP-1 when i had to replace the batteries and this is how it looks. I remember it was highly regarded by Arthur Salvatore who compared it to some of the best SUTs. 

 It was a first time when i saw input resistors like that! Those resistors looks like an MC cartridge coil and made by winding the wire to a coil that has no inductance in a special process. Those resistors made by ZYX to transfer the output signals with no noise and no inductance at all. They are made of pure coil wire of MC cartridges, cryogenic purified. Signal from LOMC cartridge should go into ZYX CPP-1 Headamp’s resistor without any influences from resistor noise and inductance. Nakatsuka-San decided to use his own resistors made of pure copper wire, same material as a copper wire of MC carts. In order to playback the sound info of LOMC carts in 100% fidelity, CPP-1 headamp has special circuit in the simplest amplification circuit. Great device to avoid Step-Up Transformers for LOMC cartridges.

Tech specs of ZYX CPP-1 Pre-Preamp:
Input impedance: 125 Ohm
Step up ratio: 26db
Frequency response (+/- 1dB): 1Hz - 500kHz 
Channel separation is higher than 100dB 
Signal to Noise ration is higher than 95dB
THD is lower than 0.1% (1kHz)


This is what Arthur said and you will find more on his website:

ZYX MC CPP-1 PRE-PREAMP

This is, most likely, the finest head-amp I've ever heard. I state this because it is competitive with the finest transformers I've had, while all the many other (external) head-amps I've heard are simply not in that league.

Disclosure- The ZYX head-amp is a solid-state device! It is highly unusual for a successful cartridge manufacturer to also design and build an audio component that is so different in fundamental nature (non-mechanical in this instance), with such excellent performance. The relevant details...

The ZYX Compared to the Bent Silver

The ZYX basically equals the Bent Silver TX-103 transformer in immediacy, neutrality, frequency extension and the size of the soundstage. The ZYX has excellent channel separation, and the macro dynamics are absolutely breathtaking. In direct comparison, the Bent Silver is superior in two areas; its ultra-low sound-floor and its freedom from electronic haze. These areas are considered "subtle" by many audiophiles, though not me, and can be especially noticeable on certain acoustical music.

Please don't misunderstand me, the ZYX's background noise (hiss) is very soft, basically non-existant, and lower than any head-amp I've ever heard. It just loses a bit of individuality, harmonic completion, sense of space and micro dynamic "tension" compared to the Bent Silver. It's not alone, so does every other step-up I've ever heard. For the sake of perspective; the ZYX's "weaknesses", only compared to the Bent Silver, are still actual strengths compared to almost every other step-up I've heard. That's how good it is. In fact, there were many times I was not even able to distinguish between the two of them, because their basic sonic character is so similar*.

The ZYX also has some practical advantages...

Other Factors and Compatability

While both the ZYX and the Bent Silver are rated at 26dB of gain, the Bent Silver loses some of its gain as soon as it is loaded-down, which is a requirement. The ZYX is already "loaded-down" as is, so it has more real gain in practice. For many systems, this may prove irrelevant, but in my own system, it is the difference between some records coming "alive", or not. There is another advantage to the ZYX; it is virtually "cable proof", since it is an active device.

While signal cables, both to and from the ZYX, are still obviously important, there's never going to be a true mismatch. Sadly, this is still possible with the Bent Silver, because it is passive by nature. I've already directly experienced this potential problem. This reality can be critical for cable freaks and/or experimenters.

In short, the ZYX's high level of performance can be experienced in every system, while the Bent Silver, though it has even greater potential, will only reach that potential with time, effort, patience and maybe some further expense.

Some Practical Information

The ZYX's power supply consists of high-quality (9 NiCd) batteries, which are re-charged in a few hours (overnight is easiest). It broke-in very quickly, only after around 10 hours or so of play. It doesn't sound good for the first few minutes of each session (it's veiled, dry and ill-defined), but it warms up fast, and after 20 minutes (1 LP side), it's already at its best. It can also be played while the batteries are being re-charged, but I'm not sure about the sonic compromises, if any, while doing so.

Despite the ZYX's relatively small size, and its lack of a large power supply reserve, I can assure you that its large dynamic swings, plus its mid/deep bass weight and impact, are as good as I've ever heard. These qualities, plus its outstanding neutrality, immediacy and spooky silence, are what most impressed me about this unit. All of this was unexpected. The "standard" model of the ZYX pre-preamp has 20db of gain, with a slightly simpler circuit. It's very possible, if not probable, that it will sound even purer.

Conclusion and Advice

This is the step-up to get if you want superb sonics, complete background silence, with no fussing around and total cable compatibility. If there's a better head-amp around, I haven't heard it, or even of it, yet. Its selling price is $ 1,650, direct on Audigon, which is $ 375 more than the Bent Silver. This may be an issue for some. However, for those audiophiles who don't like any MC transformer, for whatever reason(s), the ZYX is a "no-brainer" choice, if it's affordable.

The Bent Silver still has greater potential, which is why it is in Class A, but I can't absolutely promise you that this potential will be realized in every system. For the most serious phono fanatics, meaning those audiophiles who are prepared to make every effort to optimize it, the Bent Silver continues to be my highest Reference and, it shoudn't be forgotten, it can never break down. Just don't forget the caveats I've posted.

Future Auditions

It must be emphasized that I have not yet heard the Bent Silver or the ZYX CPP-1 at its best: The Bent Silver can still be loaded-down some more, and the ZYX's 20dB gain model has still to be properly auditioned. Both require either a more sensitive system, and/or a cartridge with higher output. This will all happen in the next few months...

The first ZYX UNIverse I will audition has a .48mV output (while the Airy 3 I'm now using is .24mV). I'm also receiving more sensitive amplifiers and speakers from Coincident Speaker Technology.

The more I think about this, 2006 is shaping up to be a truly major year for audio developments and its evolution.




Btw, other that what I posted about main " trouble " with SUT belongs to the low bass range where an active well designed phonolinepreamp has not only  more tigth or deep but with out any kind of noise or bluring you can detect but my Denon AU-1000 performs truly good even better than the silver versions of Audio Note ones.

From vintage SUT's not only Dernon are really good but you can look for Entré that are excellent too but any vintage SUT ask for modifications but its transformers that are second to none.

If some one is looking for head-amps the one from Classé Audio NIL-3 is something to listen and own it and second to none too: true Canadian engineering with an excellent excecution design reflected in its extreme high quality performance levels.

. A extremly heavy units, the power supply is a behemont size and in reality can function like a stand alone amp due to the caps reserve on it. In the picture you can see it and I can tell you that it measure ( deep. ) like 50cms. I owned it:

file:///C:/Users/LENOVO/Downloads/NIL-2%20Brochure%20(2).pdf

http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=8621#    

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649035718-classe_audio_nil_mc_stepup_amplifier_prepre/images/520682/    


R.