Dear @terry9 @fleschler and friends: That Audio Technica AT-SUT|1000 new top model says a lot for every audiophile and especially in the analog side:
In this thread ( and other threads through the time. ) I supported and posted that those vintage Japanese SUT's coming from Denon, Audio Technica and Technics are really even today second to none and contrary to today very expensive SUT manufacturers as Lundahl or Ypsilon and others the first hand knowledge levels coming inside those Japanese SUT's are way superior to the knowledge levels of today top SUT builders ( of course this is only my take. )
Audio Technica, Denon and Technics all them were/are designers and manufacturers of: cartridges, tonearms, TTs and even electronics/speakers.
Been and be cartridge designers all of them ( including Ortofon. ) knows perfectly not only how works a cartridge but its needs and that latest Audio Technica SUT is a clear example of that when it comes with input/output balanced design:
""
The transformer maintains a balanced signal from the moving-coil cartridge through to the phono preamp...""
and I don't see there silver wire transformer windings.
Anyway, that AT SUT can be a must to liosten it.
R. |
Dear @terry9 @fleschler : All those vintage SUT's I named and own/owned along the Technics that owns @enginedr1960 came from the early 80's and by coincidence all but the Technics had same price 150K Yens in those old times. Technics had lower price due that Technics was/is a company from the world biggest electronic builder Matushita with all kind of resources that even Denon or AT just has not and can't market its products at lower prices.
http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDdenon/AU-1000.html
Noted those 12kg in the Denon unit weigth? This is today Audio Technica SUT ( 5kg. that's heavy for today other SUT " standard " about. ):
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/accessories/1211e0cd29d5d0aa/index.html
a straigth SUT with no switches, that always is the best kind design. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@terry9 : I think that for that " differentiate " we need at least two things: room/system high resolution and to know what to look for that could tell me those differences.
Btw, the Technics came from 1981, that are more than 25 years.
R. |
Dear @terry9 : "
But I don't agree about vintage excelling modern.."
well maybe you could be rigth. I don't posted but I listened a system using Lundahl SUT but was a first time I listened to that system and I was in that sessions where the system had mounted a ZYX cartridge that again was the first time I listen that models so I really can't say for sure about that SUT that even I can´t remember its model.
Now: do you already listened to a vintage SUT as the Denon or Technics I mentioned?
Btw, of course that 100khz is a frequency that human beens can't hear directly but I think that " something " is down there with those vintage SUT's for it can goes with that so wide windth FR because if that be easy every one can do it and no today SUT are near of those kind of specs.
Now: "
Even so, my phono-pre is marginally better for dynamics and weight...." I can tell you that between other things the widest flat FR in an active unit is one reason on what you said even that that kind of so wide frequency range is out of our hearing sensitivity.
For many audiophiles SUT's can be addictive. Rigth now I'm listen through my AU-1000 and performs just great and with no noise levels you can detect. Can I ask for more? certainly I can live with for ever but due that my active phonolinepreampis so good in quality and resolution I prefer it to the SUT but not by a very wide margin.
Music transients is one area where my active unit beats the Denon and from there comes other music main characteristics that SUT can't achieve it however can be near of them.
R. |
Dear @terry9 : materials is always important but I think that the more critical and important characteristics belongs to the rigth build transformer design and the quality level for the excecution of that design.
Audio Note uses pure silver inits SUT’s and are not so good in quality level performance even its FR goes only at 50khz.
Design/manufacture SUT’s is no rocket science but more knowledge level and skills to do it.
Vintage SUT’s excells in those both characteristics and you have many examples:
Denon AU-1000 is only one of them and uses no silver, Audio Technica AT100T is other excellent unit ( I owned when I owned the AT1000MC where that SUT was dedicated for. ) with wide FR, Ortofon T-2000 silver wire and 4hz to 150khz, Technics top SUT is the champ on FR windth: 3hz to 300khz.. In this regards Lundahl is only average even the Ag version. Of the examples I mentioned only the Ortofon use silver wire.
I owned/own all those SUT’s but the Technics and I forgot and still own Entré that’s really good vinatge SUT.
In those old time existed a very hard SUT competition between manufacturers and this kind of contest made it that each brand tryed to be the top one.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Btw, some one mentioned Luxman, well I owned the Luxman C5000A Phonolinepreamp that came with the 8020/30 silvber wire SUT's and were and are really mediocre and nothing to look for. Of course in those old times for me the C5000A was a premium unit but for other reasons not in specific for the SUT. |
Dear @fleschler : I know is inferior to the AU-1000 and probably your Audio Interface is even better at least yours has wider frequency response and this says a lot:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/audio-interface-cst80h-step-up.866712/
I don't know why you could go for the Zesto when your Audio Interface is one of the best out there and I don't " see " how the Zesto can beats it, but........ Btw, I think that is improbable that a Zesto owner already tested against the SUT's you ask for. Anyway, always great fun testing audio items. R. |
Dear friends : Obviously that the transformers in a SUT is critical and has to be reflected in the frequency response range where is flat not at +-3db
My advise is to ask always that spec before pull the triguer and compare in between some SUT's. We have to remember that the SUT ( other than the cable/connectors ) is the first amplifier device where the delicated cartridge signal must pass and we want to preserve the integrity of that signal putting the lost signal at minimum. It's imposible for passive or active devices not lost or adds " something " .
R. |
Dear @fleschler : That SUT has 3 diferent controls at the front plate and I don't know but I can't imagine how the designer let the signal totally out of those 3 controls each time you make changes down there.
Anyway, I prefer the straigth one as the AU-1000 and is not so expensive when you find out.
R.
|
Dear @fleschler : Zesto is a good SUT but I think has a little " problem :
" extremely-versatile "
To achieve all those settings the unit needs some switches, I can say a lot of them, and the best switch is no switch because degrades the cartridge precious signal information.
All the losted cartridge signal information through those switches never came back ! !
No single switch is the best way to go with SUT's. Signal have to pass as directly as it can, with no " obstacles inside the SUT.
That's why the Denon AU-1000 is so great SUT and of course with excellent transformers.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Btw, other that what I posted about main " trouble " with SUT belongs to the low bass range where an active well designed phonolinepreamp has not only more tigth or deep but with out any kind of noise or bluring you can detect but my Denon AU-1000 performs truly good even better than the silver versions of Audio Note ones. From vintage SUT's not only Dernon are really good but you can look for Entré that are excellent too but any vintage SUT ask for modifications but its transformers that are second to none. If some one is looking for head-amps the one from Classé Audio NIL-3 is something to listen and own it and second to none too: true Canadian engineering with an excellent excecution design reflected in its extreme high quality performance levels. . A extremly heavy units, the power supply is a behemont size and in reality can function like a stand alone amp due to the caps reserve on it. In the picture you can see it and I can tell you that it measure ( deep. ) like 50cms. I owned it:
file:///C:/Users/LENOVO/Downloads/NIL-2%20Brochure%20(2).pdf
http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=8621#
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649035718-classe_audio_nil_mc_stepup_amplifier_prepre/images/520682/ R. |
Dear @mikelavigne : ""
there are no absolutes; these concepts depend on degrees of execution. SUT’s are not always better, and head amps are not always worse.
it depends....."""
you are rigth and agree with but ( always exist a : but .) as you said: depends:
a SUT in reality is not totally silent and prone to take almost every kind of external noises coming from other electronics or sometimes rfi/emi and as I said in my other post all SUT's have restricted frequency response.
I own the Denon AU-1000 ( weigths 10kgs. ) that has a flat frequency response between 5hz to 200khz that's really good for a SUT.
Now to connect a SUT to a phono stage we need additional cables and input/output connectors and soldered points down there where th really low and sensitive precious cartridge signal must pass through and all those additional " stones " in the signal path means not only additional distortions but suceptible to pick up in that path other kind of noises.
All those certainly does not happens in an active phonolinepreamp IF that phonolinepreamp has an excellent design and excellent execution to that design, if these happens then the active alternative could be a little better against that Denon AU1000 that is modified for me ( something as what I did it with my 340 by Denon. ).
Nothing is perfect in audio, trade offs everywhere and in this subject perhaps the critical trade off the one more important is that an active phonolinepreamp with those characteristics I mentioned are truly expensive really expensive and only for gentlemans as you.
I own a unit like that but only because a friend of mine and I designed and builded and I have to tell very competitive today with the best out there, obviously not perfect.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @stereo5 : Your SUT evaluation is not fair. The Denon 320 is a vintage SUT vs " today " Bob' SUT and the problem are all that crap of input/output RCA connectors as all the internal used wires because the Denon transformers are good ones with a banwindth of 10hz to 100khz and really flat response and this characteristic is truly important and critical because normally the SUT frequency response is a little restricted.
I own several SUT's and between them I owned the 320 and still own the AU-340 where I don't use any more inputs/outputs connectors but I soldered directly inside the unit the input/output silver signal cables and rewired with silver KK cable inside and know what: it's a challenge for almost any today SUT.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
