Why do subs sound bloated or slow?


The use of subs in 2 channel audio is controversial around A’gon. Detractors argue that subs usually make a system sound bloated or slow.

IME, the two biggest challenges for integrating a sub into a 2 channel system are optimizing frequency response and optimizing transient response. When frequency response isn’t flat, the bass sounds bloated. When transient response isn’t time aligned, the bass sounds slow.

Here is my pet theory about why systems that use subs often sound bloated or slow: Under many circumstances, optimizing frequency response and optimizing transient response is a zero sum game. In other words, getting one right usually means you get the other wrong.

Thoughts?

Bryon
bryoncunningham
01-25-11: Cbw723
Bryon, while I agree with much of what you say, I think room interactions are secondary. The perceived coherence of the signal is going to be primarily determined by the direct waves from the speaker and sub to the ear.

I'm not sure I agree with this point. I agree with Josh358 that the "perceived coherence" of the signal is significantly affected both by the direct sound and the indirect sound, and my suspicion is that the indirect sound is even more relevant, since the indirect sound is mediated by room modes, which are highly audible. But this is not a major source of disagreement. What IS a major source of disagreement is the importance (or lack thereof) of transient response at low frequencies, and hence the importance (or lack thereof) of time alignment at low frequencies.

It just occurred to me that there is a plausible argument about the importance of time alignment at low frequencies that has nothing to do with with improving transient response, but only with improving frequency response, namely:

Time alignment between the sub and the mains improves low frequency response by minimizing the patterns of constructive and destructive interference around the crossover frequency.

An explanation of why this is so can be read here (see the second section entitled "Timing is Everything"). For reasons of improving frequency response, some manufacturers of subs explicitly advocate the time alignment of the sub with the mains. For example, Rythmik Audio says:

In order to get the most out of your subwoofer, it is critical that it is correctly integrated with the rest of the system...

...The simple method is to compensate by changing the speaker distance setting on your receiver. Bass management in HT receivers has a speaker distance adjustment which process the signal on digital domain. If one puts distance of the sub x feet further away than its physical distance relative to other speakers, the HT receiver will put out the signal to the sub x/1000 sec before it puts out signals to other channels. That essentially puts a negative delay on the sub which can be used to reduces the "phase lag" on the sub and therefore reduces the phase difference between the sub and the front speakers. This trick enables us to use the speaker distance as a tool for phase adjustment between subwoofer and front speakers.

The point of all this is that there may be compelling reasons to time align a sub with the mains that have nothing to do with transient response, but only with frequency response.

Bryon
My bottom line is that when I optimize my subs for smoothest FR in a co-planar arrangement it sounds no better (or worse) than when the subs are FR optimized for placement 2 1/2 feet behind the mains. It does, however, require significantly more EQ to get to the same place, so I stuck with the flush to the wall sub placement.

I'm pretty confident (can't be 100% sure, though) that no one would characterize the bass that I'm currently producing as either bloated or slow - and I do have room (via the adjustable Q on the Rythmiks) to skinny it down further if it did sound that way to someone.

So, my experience just runs counter to your theory. OTOH, while I'm extremely happy with the character, extention, and integration of the bass I'm getting from my subs, any of you folks might adjudge it differently.

The ol' YMMV.

Marty
Instruments that produce very low frequency sound are "bloated and slow". A 30 foot organ pipe, for example, takes a while to develop its full output. The typical subwoofer is "faster" than the sounds it reproduces, which is as it should be.