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Why do subs sound bloated or slow?

The use of subs in 2 channel audio is controversial around A’gon. Detractors argue that subs usually make a system sound bloated or slow.

IME, the two biggest challenges for integrating a sub into a 2 channel system are optimizing frequency response and optimizing transient response. When frequency response isn’t flat, the bass sounds bloated. When transient response isn’t time aligned, the bass sounds slow.

Here is my pet theory about why systems that use subs often sound bloated or slow: Under many circumstances, optimizing frequency response and optimizing transient response is a zero sum game. In other words, getting one right usually means you get the other wrong.

Thoughts?

Bryon
bryoncunningham
bryoncunningham OP
890 posts
 
Is there a moratorium on serious conversation?

Bryon
martykl
3,578 posts
 
My bottom line is that when I optimize my subs for smoothest FR in a co-planar arrangement it sounds no better (or worse) than when the subs are FR optimized for placement 2 1/2 feet behind the mains. It does, however, require significantly more EQ to get to the same place, so I stuck with the flush to the wall sub placement.

I'm pretty confident (can't be 100% sure, though) that no one would characterize the bass that I'm currently producing as either bloated or slow - and I do have room (via the adjustable Q on the Rythmiks) to skinny it down further if it did sound that way to someone.

So, my experience just runs counter to your theory. OTOH, while I'm extremely happy with the character, extention, and integration of the bass I'm getting from my subs, any of you folks might adjudge it differently.

The ol' YMMV.

Marty
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Instruments that produce very low frequency sound are "bloated and slow". A 30 foot organ pipe, for example, takes a while to develop its full output. The typical subwoofer is "faster" than the sounds it reproduces, which is as it should be.
bryoncunningham OP
890 posts
 
My bottom line is that when I optimize my subs for smoothest FR in a co-planar arrangement it sounds no better (or worse) than when the subs are FR optimized for placement 2 1/2 feet behind the mains...I'm pretty confident (can't be 100% sure, though) that no one would characterize the bass that I'm currently producing as either bloated or slow... So, my experience just runs counter to your theory.

I don't doubt your experiences, Marty, and I thank you for sharing them. FWIW, the theory I proposed in the OP wasn't intended to be an exhaustive account of the variables that determine good subwoofer integration. I have no doubt that there are many things I have failed to consider. In fact, that was the principal reason I started the thread - to explore some of those things with people who, like me, use subs in their 2 channel systems.

And FWIW, I'm not trying to convert anyone to a theory that I only tentatively believe. I apologize if I appear that way.

Bryon
martykl
3,578 posts
 
Bryon,

Certainly no need to apologize - particularly since there is a clean chain of logic to your theory. I've just found that, in my experience, varying the listener to sub distance doesn't produce any audible issues TO MY EAR, provided that FR is appropriately EQ'd. Of course, that last bit about MY EAR always requires the YMMV disclaimer.
It is always possible that other listeners are more sensitive to the phenomenon than I am, so my responses should be treated as a single data point in the discussion, and that is the purpose for which they were intended.

Marty
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