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Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?

Most audiophiles can't seem to believe that a tiny stylus tracking the record groove on a heavy platter could possibly 'slow-down' the rotating speed of a turntable.
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).

RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE 
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.

RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.

Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE 
128x128halcro
bohe60s
23 posts
 
Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly.

The drag of the stylus will also change depending on where it is on the vinyl.

Ultimate TT would constantly adjust the speed to perfect. As soon as stylus is down and alter speed as stylus progresses.

Or, we stream and forget vinyl.

(No way, haha, love vinyl)
lewm
12,456 posts
 
bohe60s, You wrote, "Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly."  Was that in reference to my post at 11:23 AM?  If so, can you explain your meaning a little better?  If you were referring to my post, perhaps you did not understand what I was saying.  If one can detect speed irregularities (audibly, of course), then it is not irrelevant to eliminate same, so much as that is possible.  But maybe that is not what you meant.
ct0517's avatar
ct0517
2,041 posts
 
Well of course there is drag, as you have two surfaces rubbing together. Physics.

I performed (for fun) 8^0 - controlled experiments years ago and eliminated the tonearm cartridge element - I used two of the same tonearms and carts.

Each turntable drive type Idler, DD, Belt - revealed to me significant differences in the way the music was presented and the way each specific table dealt with stylus drag. (the topic of this thread)

Each drive type had a "failing factor" ......an Achilles heel was presented to me.

The way each setup - (turntable, tonearm, cartridge) dealt with the records behavior, varying grooves, and position on the record in play;  resulted in an overall "unique" sonic presentation.

For those interested my findings can be found here

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4719

and scrolling down to the last - most recent post comment - Sept 28, 2019  Its a rewrite (with hindsight) for the past -

Goldilocks and the Three Turntables.

cd318
2,636 posts
 
@jtimothya , thanks for those links. Definitely essential reading for anyone serious about vinyl.

Love the clarity of Moncrieff piece in particular. As for the out of this world Monaco 2 speed stats, it's good to know that Technics don't have it all to themselves when it comes to speed accuracy.

I can still remember the hullabaloo when Linn introduced their Lingo outboard power supply (1990). As an upgrade to their Valhalla built in board (1982), it was seen back then as the biggest upgrade in the history of the LP12. The Lingo itself was superceded by the Radikal (2009). Speed matters, and don't Linn know it.

Linn of course have persisted with their rubber belts and a cult soin developed regarding which way around the belt should be fitted. Some critics sniggered that the reason why they clung so steadfastly to rubber belts was largely down to the cheap crappy AC motors that they used for decades...

Anyway, that J. Peter Moncrieff's IAR article on The Rockport Sirius III is a classic of its kind and fully deserves to be better known. It's not the last word on turntables, and despite the fact that it's bound to incense a few it's worth 15 minutes or so reading for anyone interested in vinyl.

http://www.iar-80.com/page12.html

Perhaps Technics (orig Sony) claim of eliminating direct drive 'cogging' have finally turned the tide for good this time.


tooblue
1,882 posts
 
@ct0517, just went back and read your above mentioned posting of your thoughts after you put the three tables to test and found your results very interesting, thanks for sharing that. In this world we live, nothing is perfect and we must recognize what those inperfections are and how to deal with them. Enjoy the music.
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