Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?

Well of course there is drag, as you have two surfaces rubbing together. Physics.

I performed (for fun) 8^0 - controlled experiments years ago and eliminated the tonearm cartridge element - I used two of the same tonearms and carts.

Each turntable drive type Idler, DD, Belt - revealed to me significant differences in the way the music was presented and the way each specific table dealt with stylus drag. (the topic of this thread)

Each drive type had a "failing factor" ......an Achilles heel was presented to me.

The way each setup - (turntable, tonearm, cartridge) dealt with the records behavior, varying grooves, and position on the record in play;  resulted in an overall "unique" sonic presentation.

For those interested my findings can be found here

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4719

and scrolling down to the last - most recent post comment - Sept 28, 2019  Its a rewrite (with hindsight) for the past -

Goldilocks and the Three Turntables.

richardkrebs
Is this audible? maybe. What this wonderful hobby has taught me is that pretty much everything is audible, at least in the analogue world where I live.

Hi Richard 
Based on my personal experiences with the Goldilocks adventure, room dimensions,and specifically, the narrow rectangle  - shooting down the short wall, and the type of pickup tonearm/cart used, has "very much" to do with how much is "audible" 8^0

^^^^  up 2 posts

@peterayer 

Peter
your findings were very interesting (One table short of a Goldilocks adventure.) 

Your findings are supported by what Richard said.

richardkrebs
The level of granularity we use to measure TTs is simply too crude to show us what is going on in real time under dynamic conditions.

But we sure can hear it.

Still

IMO, based on my personal journey, "Stylus Drag" is not an Iceberg Scenario, where most of what is happening is below the surface; where this thread is focused.  The table and keeping speed. 

What is happening above the surface is just as, if not more important in regards to Stylus Drag, since I believe the type of cartridge and tonearm pickup used are worth ........hmmmmm..........let's call it 33.333 % each. 8^0

As we know playing vinyl properly requires good setup between the trio of parts.
Cheers Chris

lewm
I THINK that some of us are saying this: Absolute accurate speed is not the issue.

I learned how important speed stability was, over the actual speed when I was 10 years old. Got my first - to me - portable stereo - Hitachi am/fm with cassette and microphone.

The next few days I filled one tape - recording music from FM.
When the tape was full, I played only my tape of music for the next week. I remember to this day thinking what freedom I had to play my own songs. Of course I had taped songs that triggered a "happy mood" in me.
Life was good.     

************************************

After one week, I switched to, and listened to FM radio again. Something was wrong. I noticed that the songs I had recorded now coming at me through FM, did not sound as good as my taped version. They sounded slow and lethargic. I was confused. My tape version of the songs had a better tempo, more energy. More life.

Sometime later ....I figured out what had happened.

***********************************

The tape motor in my stereo was running fast. Oh... it was a stable and consistent enough speed, so it sounded ok. It was just running a little fast.
I learned at 10 years of age that "Speed Stability" is what is important.

Sometimes I like to speed up my turntable, up a bit, you know ....go audiophile crazy.... just to hear older female voices ...........sound younger.

Fountain of Youth ?  Try that with your digital. 

uberwaltz
I routinely run my TT,s and my R2R ever so slightly fast deliberately just for that sense of extra attack, drive and dynamics.

Hi Kevin 
I know a guy that actually likes the speed a little slower.

Some of my fondest music memories are of listening to music groups/bands in nightclubs on a regular basis, before the whole marriage/kids, and lack of time ....
The tempo of the performance was never the same, night after night from same bands. In fact it seemed to me that the tempo for a specific night was set, based on the state of how the drummer showed up. *^)

Stay the course....8^0
This thread is about Stylus Drag.
I said earlier based on my personal experiences, Stylus drag effect is based on the type 1) type of turntable, 2) the type of tonearm used, and 3) the type of cartridge/stylus. The turntable rabbit hole has been explored.......

So.....

Has anyone done a drag measurement for different stylus types.
Should be easy if you own a belt drive.
  
Count the revolutions for a set period of time without the stylus engaged.
Then try the different stylus types, and repeat.

https://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/stylus_shapes/stylustypes.jpg

Conical, one would assume? - should have the least drag in the groove - least surface contact ?

Curious to findings

mijostyn
The platter is massive, driven by a Kevlar string!

mijostyn
Kevlar would not be my choice of material to use on a string drive designed turntable.

"been there done that"

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CeXnpSNXhk3fKKv6

Kevlar has strength, but is far, IMO from the best sounding. The best designed String Drive tables (again IMO) are very delicate ? (for lack of a better word) with the STRING - allowing the audiophile owner to use the most DELICATE of strings/threads. Very audible differences.

Now you want to talk about an Audiophile Rabbit Hole.

Opportunities await the Audiophile at Fabric land for the String Design.

mikelavigne
feedback from CS Port LFT1 users i’ve spoken to is that the Kevlar string works exceedingly well. directly compared to a number of tt’s, belt, idler and direct drive.

i’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.

i would expect that CS Port has their good reasons to use kevlar.

IMO
When a manufacturer of a product builds something - anything - there is a scale. Put simply to make a point here. It has been my experience as a consultant working in multiple industries.

A-----------B-------------C

A - represents the best performance but usually not lasting as long. Short Life.
B - represents middle of the road - good performance - lasts a good time.
C - represents - durability longest lasting - performance not as good as A and B.

Now depending on the field, A or B or C could be the best solution. Where do you think the Audiophilia field fits ?    Well it depends of course. 
   
Where does Kevlar string fit for this particular TT. I don't know the TT. I don't know the answer. 
 
I do know that Kevlar has 1) durability, and 2) is good for marketing. It seems to have impressed mijostyn based on his response. A regular person will say "Hey they make Bullet Proof Vests out of Kevlar". An audiophile might say - "Hey doesn't B&W use Kevlar in their drivers ?"

3) It is slippery more so than other examples tried. Now think slippery, and a big heavy platter, and the force required of the string around the platter, that will be needed to turn it - and this will depend entirely on the motor design. So each string drive design is unique on its own. More variables !

*******************************************************

Look, I own authentic Verdier string that came with my turntable. I did give it a good go. I don't use it anymore for a number of reasons. Its doesn't make my TT perform/sound as good as it can. and 2) maybe more important - does not allow me to set up my TT in a fashion that allows for this best performance. Now most people are just happy with the basic 101 setup, and leave it at that. Some even change the pulley and use a belt (sacrilege...)  JC Verdier RIP - rolls in his grave each time this happens.   
    

I’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.

Changing out the string, and the (length)..... if the design allows, is sonically like changing out power tubes - EL34, KT66, KT88, etc... just as one quick example. You will get a leaner, thicker, bloatier, quicker, slower, etc.... performance / presentation with different strings/threads.

On the 2nd part of your paragraph - this is a good thing if you own a cat / feline.... 

Appreciate the comments Mike.
Mijostyn - Let me try to explain this better.
It’s not the string itself that has a "sound". Its how the "material used" is handled by the very small motor pulley, and how the string handles the platter - that produces the presentation.

One can use different string materials, with different compliance’s. One can also change the force with which the string is wrapped between the motor pulley and platter. Both ways produced different results. And whichever works best depends on the turntable design objective. The tighter the wrap, the more the motor performance influences the platter performance. The looser wrap puts less motor influence in play. My target is to give the motor the least amount of motor influence due to its Platter design - more on this in a minute. .

So my string is applied loose - so loose that I can flick the string between the motor and platter and a listener can not hear any stability issue. The motors influence is so little on the platter design, that if I change the pitch / speed, the change takes maybe 5 seconds or more to register to the ear.

The platter design is unlike most in that it is not free spinning - the opposite forces generated from the magnets produce a braking action, which from conversing directly with Mr. Verdier (when he was alive), helps to deal with the records erratic behavior due to the large and small groove modulations. It needs only occasional shots from the motor to keep at speed and overcome stylus drag. Note; A turntable with a free spinning platter would need significantly more motor control. This would change the requirement for the type of string that will be used also . make sense ?

Now if I set the string tension tighter - the same flick of the string will cause audible results because the motor influence has much greater control. This IMO was not how the motor was designed to be used with this turntable (tight), especially by those who bypass the string and use belt. This is also why I feel those that have modified their La Platine Verdiers with different motors - have gone that route. They were too tight, and the genius in the design of his Platter System - was not taken advantage of.

mijostyn - I want to thank you very much for the CD mention on an audio site - it gave me a chuckle .
I need some chuckles you know after the Canadian federal election results.8^(

Just a forum misunderstanding that's all in this case on the term braking action. You may use the term damping if you like. To slow down implies braking as far as I am concerned.  
   
As you know take two fridge magnets - same poles facing each other - just try to make them come together and stay together - 8^0
oh....if someone is successful at this,  please let Geoffkait know.
   
Now picture two very nicely isolated magnetic circles - one positioned above the other. Same poles facing one another. The top one is attached to the bottom of the platter and it rotates only.
the force between them causes levitation and the damping / braking action. The platter will support an 8 kilogram center weight - if one were inclined.
Now  
with the string engaged, motor pulley and platter, if I turn the motor off, things wind down slowly and the platter takes about 20 seconds to come to a dead stop.
If I instead cut the string with scissors - the platter stops in a much shorter time - 1/4 the time from what I remember - due to the damping braking force between the magnets.  

^^
When I cut the power to the motor you can hear the internal gears still working, winding down slowly - as the string is still attached to the pulley it keeps turning the platter.
32.5 seconds. just tried it.  Now  I don't feel like cutting the string right now 8^0.  take my word on the shorter duration.  
oh and I can cut the power for a couple seconds, turn it on again and the music doesn't miss a beat to the listener, like flicking the string. 
From the moment I heard this table in 101 set up at the beginning with the first record - I knew I was done. End of the road. Same goes for my tonearm. That was many years ago. I do still enjoy talking tech and helping others get set up through the winter months. Good luck on your new turntable. 

My fraternal twins love music and they know all the music I love - but millennial's get I would say 60-70% of the satisfaction with their portable systems. They are happy with that. I don't see any wanting to set up a system that is not portable.  I am thinking of starting a thread.

"The Audiophile's Equipment Burden on the Family"  and  "Strategies to Deal with the Burden"

I thought for myself the gear was going to be the burden. Nope - its the records on two floors of our house. 

Cheers Chris