Why are the vocals on some records hidden behind the music on my system?

williewonka- I think I see what you are getting at especially after read the info you took the time to post from soundsmith . I wasn't trying to adjust the vta/sra via vtf on purpose, but I guess that .2 grams extra might be enough to cause the cantilever to bend enough to do just that. And if that is the case then it would mean that the vta still is to high, right? So now the problem is how to actually find an accurate way to find 90 deg.for the tone arm and then make the up and down adjustments that will then fail in the vta. My thought is to find something that can be laid on tt that is known to be straight and then view the gap at both ends of the tonearm to this item when viewed from the bottom side (as long as the tone arm is a straight tube )  I have a laser level but I would have to build some kind of jig to mount it on to focus it on the plane along the pivot point of the tone arm. So I'll back the vtf back to 1.6 grams and start over again and hope for the best from there. I do acknowledge that the previous fix was more of a bandage instead of a real life fix. I'll let you know how this effort works out. Who knew HI-FIing was so hard (lol)

well once again I fixated on the wrong point for setting vta. While trying to find 90 degrees using the tone arm (which showed no improvement) I figured out that it is the head shell that is to be used as the reference point! Now that did make quiet a difference in the sound. Kudos to willewonka for pointing out article for soundsmith because where I was and where I am now might be 1/4" lower and sounds way better (not to say fine tuning may or may not help?).I think my next move will be to look into a TT with a vtaotf tone arm because there is no doubt that vta has a great deal of difference in the sound. I have learned a whole lot of things during this forum and hope to learn even more , this is why I came here in the first place was to learn.Thanks for all the help and ideas I'm sure I would have given up long ago if not for all of you taking an interest in my problem.

scooby2do

well once again I fixated on the wrong point for setting vta. While trying to find 90 degrees using the tone arm (which showed no improvement) I figured out that it is the head shell that is to be used as the reference point!

You seem to be confused about phono cartridge alignment. First, you do not want a 90 degree VTA. VTA should typically be in the range of about 15 to 20 degrees. SRA should be in the 90 degree range. Perhaps you are confusing the two.

In any event, proper phono cartridge alignment doesn’t rely on the headshell as a reference point, but the cantilever (and stylus) itself. Your failure to recognize this goes a long way towards explaining the trouble you’re having with setup.

IMO, the whole confusion between VTA and SRA stems from the fact that it is not possible to adjust one independently of the other.  FWIW, arm manufacturers describe this adjustment as VTA while a corresponding SRA adjustment feature in a cartridge is not available.  Regardless of what the geometric adjustment is called, the idea is to get the stylus to the correct vertical relationship between its edge profile and the grove of the record.  While the -2 degree specification that Soundsmith insists on is a good place to start, the cutter heads on record presses may or may not hold that geometry.  That's why an audible difference can be observed even between the 2 sides of the same record.

The issue of VTF is also a concern because it is affected by VTA.  Physical adjustments have to made (e.g. changing VTA by removing the mat) to accommodate for the height of the scale tray relative to the combined OAH of the mat & vinyl.  This is necessary to obtain a reasonably accurate VTF measurement for actual playback conditions.  Every tonearm is a bit different, but a long-standing rule of thumb is to get the VTF set when the arm wand is parallel to what will become the vinyl surface.  That will minimize VTA (inclusive of SRA) errors due to variations in vinyl thickness as well as minimizing induced VTF changes.  As the OP has discovered, it's also a very tedious process in fixed VTA arms.

These points of geometry are precisely why I am such a big fan of VTA OTF capability in tonearms.  Setting VTF becomes a rote task.  VTA (again, inclusive of SRA) becomes something that can be unambiguously controlled in real time.  It sounds better or it doesn't.  Stop adjusting when it sounds as good as you can get it.  The best arm and cartridge combos can resolve even minute differences to drive profound results.

Not everyone is willing to address all these minutiae simply to play recorded music, but the effort is worth it to me.  That's why audio is such a great hobby!

cleeds- read the article above provided by willewonka from soundsmith. It states that they think you should start with the tone arm is to be placed parallel to the record surface. Is that not 90 degrees? that is what I was referring to, but after finding what I considered parallel (90 degrees) I adjusted up and down to find that by setting the head shell mounting plate at close to 90 degrees (again parallel to the record) resulted in the best sound with the vocals out front. If you have a different method to find vta explain in more detail and I will be more than happy to try it out. In that same article it also states that their styli have a hidden facet that can be up +/- 4 degrees from 90 degrees so that sar is unreliable to use as a method of set up. Their words not mine, so how do you think I should proceed given this information. I have no problem attempting a different method if it can give me better results. Right now it's not bad but I do feel like it might be possible to attain better sound but chasing around in circles without some idea of which way to go and a way to get there does me no good. An observation I made today was using what I call the walk around test. After making a change and setting in the "sweet spot" for awhile I would get up and walk to different point in the room to see the effect in those locations. Sometimes it was better that the SS and other times it was not, but at some point it should sound good at all most all points. Now it may take some room treatments to make that happen , but it was just interesting to observe .