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Pros & Cons of Buying an Integrated with Built-in DAC?

I'm currently looking at integrateds. Ideally, I'd like the next one to be my last and I'm wondering whether I need to purchase one with an internal DAC to provide flexibility for computer audio should I be compelled to go that route in the future. Will today's DACs be outmoded 3 years from now? Am I better off waiting to buy a separate DAC until I really need one? I'm confused. Technology is speeding up and my middle aged brain is slowing down! 

stuartk
stuartk OP
2,363 posts
 
mesch;

It's sure made me appreciate my Silverline monitors !
I enjoyed my Jolida integrated; it was great for Jazz and other 
types of acoustic music, but the downside was that I ended up
largely limiting my listening choices to those genres. The Wells
lacks the euphonic mids of the Jolida-- it doesn't do the 2nd order 
harmonic 3D thing that you get with tubes-- when I used the word 
"dimensional" I meant each instrument now has more presence/solidity
in the mix and that the soundstage, which was formerly quite "flat", 
has much more depth. But, the Wells is enabling me to enjoy All
the music in my collection. I listened to "Blow by Blow" by J. Beck,
this morning-- just the ordinary remaster-- and it was like hearing it 
for the first time. The usual caveat re: the downside of increased resolution with poorly recorded cds applies, needless to say. 
I realize there's  a lot of hype and I also understand that each person not only hears differently but has a unique conception
of what constitutes "good sound", but I think Jeff Wells' gear deserves 
to be much better known. 
mesch
3,402 posts
 
I looked this integrated up. I like the clean looks and simple design. The 'less is more' approach. Now to find a dealer located such that when I travel I might hear one. Currently  I own a Jolida Fusion pre, driving a BEL 1001 MK V.  I went from an integrated amp to separates when I moved into a dedicated room. Not because at my budget separates might be better than an integrated, but for equipment placement/cable length issues. Well also I got a great deal on the BEL.
stuartk OP
2,363 posts
 
mesch;

I'd e-mail Jeff Wells and ask him. 
mahler123
3,044 posts
 
There is more to DAC performance than what chip is used.  I have the Oppo 105 Universal Player/DAC and the freestanding DAC Mytek Manhatten. Which uses the same chip.  The comparison isn't close; there is so much more detail with the Mytek.  Of course the Mytekhas a much bigger power supply, and doesn't have to divide it 's power to a multiplicity of tasks, like the Oppo.  I will be suspicious of Integrateds with included DACs for that reason.  I would by a separate entry level DAC and a traditional Integrated Amp and then upgrade as needed
auxinput
2,920 posts
 

I would totally agree with mahler123.  The actual DAC chip used has very little to do with the overall sound quality.  Although, I have heard that the Sabre DAC chip is actually very picky and can be challenging to implement properly.  The biggest parts of a DAC sound quality are the power supply (enormously important!) and the I/V and LPF circuits  (which op amp / discrete? / Class A?).

Going back to the original question - Is it worth it to get an integrated with a built-in DAC.  The power amp section is probably going to have it's own power supply, since it will typically operate at something like 50V or 63V DC with high current.  However, the preamp/DAC section has these stages:

digital receiver (usually 3.3V, sometimes 5V)

DAC chip (typically 3.3 - 5V)

I/V (voltage to current) conversion circuit (anywhere from +9V to +/-15V)

LPF (possibly) (anywhere from +9V to +/-15V)

preamp output buffer stage (anywhere from +9V to +/-15V)


On an integrated amp, all the low voltage circuits are going to be using a shared power supply because there is limited space and there's no room to space out different power supply sections for the different DAC/preamp stages(capacitor bank / regulator / any post-regulator caps).  The 3.3/5V regulators are probably going to be tapped on the +15V power supply line (example).  This means that when a waveform hits (such as a drummer hitting a snare) the DAC chip, I/V, LPF and preamp buffer are all going to try to draw that voltage/current from the +15V power supply line.  If the power supply is not beefy enough (and it typically isn't), then the power of the waveform can suffer and this can translate into a weaker sound that lacks punch/authority.  It may also lack clarity. 

I would not focus much on the future and new formats/technology.  The most important factor is the quality of the analog audio circuits themselves.  I have had a old Krell HTS 7.1 from 2001 that pretty much kicked the crap out of a LOT of new stuff (even though I could not play hi-res audio or bluray formats).  Even though the new technology promised better sound, my old Krell still beat it with lo-res data.  The Krell had all individual power supply sections for digital / DAC / Analog sections.

Buying an Integrated with a built-in DAC is definitely very convenient and this may fit your requirements.  If you're after sound quality, it's best to use a separate DAC.  That allows the preamp section in the Integrated to use it's own isolated power supply.

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