Modernists Unite, or: saying no to room treatment

I think Eighth Nerve's (alas no more) philosophy had the right idea. I believe it coincides with what Emailists was saying. The idea is to treat upper room corners with triangles and the seams (wall to wall and wall to ceiling) with rectangles. To Pubul57's comment, the rectangles are not bass traps, just thin panels that reduce slap echo. If you want a visual click on my system link. You can clearly see the upper seams and maybe a triangle or two.

To Duke's point, I have his speakers, actually have had two different brands of his. He has been to my place and seen a couple different configurations of my less than optimal listening room. I'll agree with Duke on a couple of things:

First, his Jazz Module speakers set up properly are less susceptible to room issues. You have the 45 degree toe-in recommendation that greatly reduces side wall reflection issues and increases the sweet spot. In my room the 45 degree angle cannot be used effectively (IMO) and so its more like 20 degrees and near field listening, 6.5 ft. (not as close as they used to be Duke :). You also have the bass port and tweeter tilt adjustment capabilities, both of which have come in handy for me.

Second, I have noticed of late that removing some of the larger bass trap panels I had in the room (but leaving the Eighth Nerve panels) improved the sound, but without any side effects (I'm assuming in part to Duke's design). In fact I don't treat first reflection points any longer which in my room did result in the instruments sounding more lively (added reverberation I suspect). The bass is especially improved.

So while I do feel room treatments are necessary in most of today's living environments, the idea of less is more (and careful placement of the treatments) should be followed.

Audiokinesis wrote:
My opinion is that a speaker should sound just fine in a fairly reverberant [environment] - just like the acoustic instruments it's supposed to be reproducing.

To which Kr4 replied:
I firmly disagree. The recording of the performance includes the acoustics of the performance site, as it should. Superimposing the reverberation of the listening room is, by definition, a distortion.

Audiokinesis responds:
Kal, the question is not whether there will be a reverberant energy contribution in the type of room Soundgasm is talking about. The question is whether or not that reverberant energy contribution will be detrimental or beneficial.

Also, late-arriving, spectrally correct, diffuse reverberant energy that comes from all directions is certainly not "distortion" from a perceptual standpoint. It is "reverberant energy". Any definition of distortion that is inconsistent with perception is of questionable value because it will lead you to solve the wrong problems.

Duke

Soundgasm wrote:

"So is it true? Are all the modernists suffering with 80th percentile sound?
It's not about WAF. I don't want to live in a rug-covered padded cell either"

I'm a designer (pointed towards minimalism/modernist) and an audiophile.

To respond with my opinion inserted, I would have to say definitely NO that modernist are not suffering with 80th percentile sound.
While yes it can be hard to get proper acoustics out of an existing modern room for many different reasons, however with proper knowledge and thought (and sometimes money) you can have a beautiful sounding modernistic room.

I had the privilege to work on the design team for the Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles with Frank Gehry. As an example this is a very modern building and typical to other projects we worked on but still used some very simple rough basic materials that are readily available to the common builder.

The difference was the knowledge and importance of acoustics. While the main concert hall space is an amazing room (subjective to some), it's not something that me or you can ever afford to have as a living room. However, down below there were many rooms and offices that needed excellent acoustics while still keeping up with proper aesthetics but with a low build cost. There are practice rooms for the musicians to warm up and learn pieces of music. These rooms were mostly exposed plywood & white wall spaces, they sounded excellent.

They were not complicated to build and the shape was very usable. If it were a living room the WAF and design friends would give it two thumbs up.

Bottom line is that the knowledge and factoring the importance of acoustics and implementing it is the key to making any room sound worthy whether it's ultra modern minimalism or classic country.

Currently I'm living in a modern house and my listening room is too lively but that because I'm too lazy to do anything about it.

Crad, excellent post. Can you provide some more detail, or (very) general specifications for these rooms?

'there were many rooms and offices that needed excellent acoustics while still keeping up with proper aesthetics but with a low build cost. (edit) These rooms were mostly exposed plywood & white wall spaces, they sounded excellent.'

Keep in mind furniture and window coverings are room treatment too. This never mentioned.

Commercial room treatment is getting like aftermarket power cords. Everybody thinks they need it whether they need it or not.

First you must determine if you need it in the first place. Room treatment is something that can easily be over done.