Why am I experiencing listener's fatigue?

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the responses.

My room is 12'8"x16'11". The speakers are toed in so that the speakers shoot just past my ears. I am about 7 feet away. I have not tried it without the monster power bar and i dont know if that would cause fatigue. I have tried toeing out as well, with or without grilles, without success.

By fatigue i mean a sore , light burning sensation just behind or at my ear drums after say about an hour of listening it seems to start. I keep listenening because i want to listen to more but then regret it later when my ear has a very faint ringing and slight temporary loss of higher frequency hearing (due to light ringing). I listen at "medium" levels...that is...its not blaring loud. I would say at medium loud so as to open up whats in the music. This is between the 10-12 o clock on the stingray dial in triode mode.

I have not treated the first reflections. I have carpet and an average amount of furniture in the room. The ceiling is 8 feet high.

I like the tubes in the manley(not that i have alot of experience with tubes)...but would be curious to try some others down the road.

I experience the fatigue almost always if i listen long enough. Of course some cds are worse than others and can bring it about faster. Maybe more so with rock. I would like to be able to listen for up to 4 hrs if i want.

I dont know what a vertical axis is so i cant comment maybe someone can explain. I am in an equidesant triangle with the tweeters at ear height.

Nothing between the speakers.

The manley is 25 watts in triode and 50 watts in ultralinear. The 25 can get the speakers plenty loud.

No, i dont have a sub but can more bottom end eliminate the problem?

I dont think i'm "rolling off" cause of the cardas's and turning up the volume cause of that. I have not heard that cardas's roll off at lower volumes. I dont think that is it. In terms of the overall perspective i like where the whole sytem places me...ie with classical , about 5 rows and with studio rock or country right in the studio.

I would describe the sound as slightly edgy in the highs. The cardas ic comment was interesting. golden cross?

I will treat the first reflections sometime soon down the road...so that might be part of it. I have always wondered about the 805's but am still suspending jugdement. Maybe they are too edgy in the treble.....? I am sure alot of people have blamed them when it could have been a room or component problem.

I do have a vinyl set up but it occurs with that too. I did not mention the set up because it seemed to happen with either format.

I know the cav 50 is more euphonic and romantic than the stingray and was aware of that but in the end i wanted some of that but something more atuned for rock, though i'm sure the cav does well at that too.

Well its nice to know that there are others with the nautilus's that dont experience fatigue. That is encouraging to me. I want to keep them and make them work if i can. I used to have a classe cap 80 and the upgrade to the stingray brought a whole bunch more sweetness to the 805's but something is still there...With the recent addition of the stingray it has really taken the music to a very exciting level for me. It made me feel like i was finally starting to "arrive" and for the first time made me feel like all my work was worth it cause this thing is sounding unbelievably good. I was starting to be amazed by what i could hear. It was like live music, almost.

If people have some other suggestions that would be good, along with how long/loud they can listen for without experiencing fatigue that would be very interesting to me. I have tried to answer everyone's question , i hope i didnt miss any. thanks john.

hey guys,

xxx I think you need to seek medical attention. Listening fatigue is usaully a mental state xxx

Yes the sympton is physical. It is tinnitus or tinnititus , however its spelt. It is not boredom or irritation or something emotional as a result of listening to music.

....But if the higher frequencies are bright doesnt that "fry" your ears with prolonged listening? Isnt it a sliding scale. "Perfect treble" is sweet and enjoyable and probably more tolerable at certain volume than a less perfect treble at the same decibal level.... but nevertheless even perfect treble if played at very loud levels will make your ears ring.

No, no light switch dimmers.

xxxx you are damaging your ears and it is irreversable... xxxxx

yes i know. I did have a hearing test about 3 weeks ago cause i was worried and she said my hearing tested normal.

About toe in and set up i used the forum advice and set up example in the following thread

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/26/t/000990.html

The xa777es is really good, probably more neutral than it is romantic and maybe the golden cross ic will warm things up and help a bit. How many hours can you guys listen for without any bad effects? 2, 4, 6?

Yes, that is what i remember learning a long time ago but just forgot about. I was reading up on the bi wire sinlge strand debate and had decided from what i gleaned that bi wiring was the better way. I think i'll do that. Can you hear an audible difference or is it that you can just listen longer. It is very possible that the difference is inaudible and unfatiguing.Good tip. Your speakers point to a space one foot in front of you? Really. Hmmm. Interesting. I think i will bi wire sometime soon. I have gone to a doctor who now is sending me to specialist to check my ears. What a kaffufle! I hope i'm ok.

"improves low level detail" what is low level detail? I mean it seems self explanatory. I do find myself wanting to turn up the volume because at levels which are probably more comfortable i only get certain parts of the musical presentation. It is as though there are things I just know are there because i am familiar with a track or cd but am not hearing them at the level i am listening at, so i turn it up. Turning it up seems the only way to get at that info. Now i know that a good test for any system and especially an amp is its ability to present the whole frequency range at any volume or at least low volume. In other words it will play quite quietly and still give you the whole spectrum and maintain the integrity of the musical presentation. That is what i've gleaned from the internet and have come to accept as true. It could be wrong but i dont think so. So, anyways what i'm saying is i that i do think that the symptoms you describe are there in my system and that I'm turning it up too loud to get "everything" out. But not just that but bi wiring could get rid of at least some of the listening problems i have. IF you were able to change all that by bi wiring than that is what i'll need to do too. I am taking a huge break right now from listening, so everything will have to wait a while. thanks for the follow ups.The b&w story was great! Yes the 805's are pretty amazing when they're done right. They sound absolutely amazing to me but i have this problem. If anything is there downfall it would be there ability to match up, since they seem to be very specific about what they want. Is my understanding of low level detail correct?

Just a follow up to this old thread. I recently bi wired the 805's with some plain speaker wire.( I sold my cardas wire ). This helped take out some of harshness in the treble to my surprise. Anyone reading this who has bw's should bi wire them and follow just what the manufacturer recommends. Another thing is the stingray coupled with the metal tweeters on the 805 i have read by an interviewer that this could in fact cause brightness. This also could be a contributing cause. Also i think the concrete stands are highmass which can be a good thing but one thing they dont do is dampen. I think since the 805's have threads in the bottom of their cabinets that they were meant to be coupled to a stand to transfer resonances and have them damped. I think heavy stands filled with sand and coupled to the speaker is the best situation. The blu tac i was using was probably too thick as well (the size of a pinball ) This i think isolated the speaker. A very very thin layer of blu tac would be better so that energy can transer to the stand but in the case of concrete even then there wont be much dampening. All this might effect imaging but perhaps this might be another possible culprit for the fatigue i was experiencing. A cardas golden reference interconnect helped too , as my diy interconnect i suspect, is a bit forward and harsh. Also i have logged another 150 hrs on the speakers which saw a more tonally balanced sound emerge. The woofers on these things are so rigid and well built that i would bet there are even more breaking in thresholds ahead if you have the patience to wait for them.

Summarizing: likely culprits:

not bi wired, manley / metal tweeter bad combo, poor speaker mounting, bright interconnect, speaker not fully broken in, turning up volume too loud to try to compensate exaccerbated the problem and symptoms

.

Yes, I did have the tweeter grilles on as well. This didnt make much of a noticable difference. I recently had them on a pair of osiris stands and placed blu tac the size of dimes on top of the stands. This helped drain the energy through to the stands and down into the floor. The osiris stands I filled with sand. This kind of mounting made a more than subtle improvment to the soundstage and provided a better defined bass. Good stands really can bring out all the subtle spacial cues that makes things sound more like real music. Things like the subtle stress or strain and emotion from a vocalist where you make can make emotional distinctions or feel their emotion behind the passage of music theyre trying to express. This has opened my eyes to the importance of tweaking after you've got good components together. With all this the 805's never sounded better but nevertheless I still had the amp/spkr combo to think about. I have sold the 805's and am looking at some merlin tsm mm's. I cant say whether the 805's are bright or not. I guess each listener will have to decide for themselves. I could never get them to work so that I could listen as long as I wanted and have my ears feel as though I had done no listening at all. Does that mean they are bright? I still have to answer no because listening is a system thing. I thought the 805 in my system sounded great and they did. Listening was great. The fatigue wasnt immediately apparent. Everything felt fine it was just the afterward part. Before them i had the 602 S3's. Those were great too but same thing. System or them? dont know. Sometimes its synergy...Maybe everyone who finds these speakers bright have the same listening tastes or have something similar about theyre actual ears that dont mix. In conclusion , if theyre guilty of anything, if they are to be called unforgiving it is maybe not so much the sound they produce but rather theyre unforgiving in the way the match with other equipment. Not bright just fussy. Form your own conclusion from your own experience. Perhaps theyre aristocrats who refuse to marry with peasants? Dont let this thread deter you from buying them or trying them out for yourself. Try them and decide for yourself.