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Tawa, The Mint tractor is made for an specific toneram/ turntable cambo. The Uni Din or other so called 'universal tractors' are average tractors for all purposes. But the difference between spindle dimensions by different turnatables can be considerable. Your hope to find the Uni Din second hand for $100 make no sense to me because for the same money you can get a more pricise tractor for your specific tonearm/turntable combo.
If you want to try an alignment like UniDIN, you can use a two point protractor with similar nulls. The difference between the various alignments for a given arm basically amounts to setting up to different nulls, as explained here:
I am sure that if you wish to experiment without spending a lot, it would be possible to use the free Chpratz protractor from VE.
Or, if not that, then have Yip make a Mint for a specific known effective length or mounting distance using given nulls.
The important thing with any protractor is to persevere with trying to obtain the required zero error degrees when the stylus is on the nulls.
Hi dear John, What a pleasure to read the lecture of a real
professional. I have no idea about possible deviation of the
different spindle thickness by different turntables. Yip
consider them as important for the precision of his Mint
tractor. But he sells them so 'some objective' info looks
also important. Will you be so kind to explain the issue?
Tawa, Google for 'Arche headshell' or 'Archon MC cartridge'
to find all Dertonarms inventions.
Some more boring stuff...
There is an RIAA standard from 1963 (and subsequent later revisions and metrications) which gives the record hole size as 0.286", with a tolerance of +0.001" and -0.002". This means that the hole can be between 0.284 and 0.287 (7.214mm to 7.289mm).
Why should this be? It seems a strange size until you remember that the standard was established in the age of imperial sizes, and the nearest fractional size is 9/32" which is 0.281" (7.14mm). This would have been the nominal size for a spindle, and the records were made to fit neatly on a typical spindle, not vice versa.
If a spindle diameter had been within the range for hole size, the record will be a push fit or an interference fit. It won't drop on or lift off easily.
The spindle should probably ideally be 0.282 +0 and -0.002 (7.11mm to 7.18mm)
From a quick internet survey of measured spindles, typical modern spindle sizes are around 7.1 to 7.2mm ie 0.279" to 0.283". In other words 9/32" +/- 0.002", which might be expected.
So, with regard to protractors, these are small amounts and the effect on set up is minuscule regarding the position of the nulls if the error in position is in that direction - variations in distortion in the hundredths of a percent (ie 0.01%)
For a protractor that uses the Dennesen principle, like the Smartractor/Unitractor, any variation in the overhang direction of 0.1mm would produce an error in offset angle in the order of 0.08 degrees, which, depending on the direction of the overhang variation, can actually reduce average distortion for a Lofgren A IEC alignment.
However all these numbers are tiny and bear no relation to the variation in accuracy normally achieved in practice (with whichever alignment). Usually the overhang is easiest to set and both the Mint and the Uni protractor, make much of how accurately their items are made, to within 0.01mm. So perhaps if you have an arm with a micrometer adjustment for overhang you could perhaps work to those tolerances with patience and time.
However, the restricting factor is usually how accurately the offset can be set, especially on an arm where adjusting the offset also affects overhang. If you get within a tenth of a degree you are an ace. Worrying about hundredths is silly.
Best wishes to you and all Audiogoners for 2015.
Why would anyone recommend Dertonearm, Dietrich Brakemeier,
Acoustical Systems.de Arche headshell.de
Even a casual user of AudioGon over the past couple of years could of
very well read about the fraud Brakemeier committed not only here on
AudioGon but elsewhere, So for frequent members this should be common
knowledge the guy is bad news.
Dertonearm is banned due to committing Fraud and I know of a well
respected member that was defrauded out of thousands of dollars and
subsequently I was made aware of others in this audio community that
were defrauded out of much more , into the tens of thousands of dollars
Dertonearm received money for product that he never delivered, down
payments sent for expensive custom items never built and refund promises
for many other audio related items that remain unfulfilled , it goes on and
on to the tune of many tens of thousands of dollars ,
So knowing this why would anyone promote this low life thief ,......
In-shore, Well to me J. Carr is the nicest person in our
forum but this quality of his character would not be a
sufficient reason for me to buy his carts. It is rather the
other way round. The quality of his carts will be the real
reason to buy them. Because of Lew I am reluctant to mention
Newton who was very nasty as person. He even accused Leibniz
to have stolen his infinitesimal calculus. I don't believe
that mathematicians and phisicist refused his calculus
because of his character.
The mentioned Dertonarm's products are sold by a dealer
and not by him personaly. If whomever thinks that his Arche
or Protractor is the best there is one is entitled to buy
them for the simple reason that we all are free to spend our
money as we like. I would never dream to ask In-shore what
I should or not buy.
Well, Nandric, he is a fan-boy of the Bavarians...maybe, as some would say, "a promoter like Syntax." However, as In-shore has nicely stated, why would anyone buy from those crooks?
I have received many emails from those who, like myself, even today, are continually cheated by Dertonearm, accoustical systems, Dietrich/Daniel Brakemeier and their various disguises. The list of complaints goes on and on...very poor quality control, damaged goods, refusal to deliver and/or provide refunds, performance not matching hype...it goes on and on.
Buyer beware, the history of their frauds go way back...VAT, bankruptcy, books paid for and never printed/delivered, inability and refusal to deliver products paid for, refusal to make refunds, and those infamous money-back guarantees-hah!
Quality control...non-existent, but then again...there is a saying in Germany, "when you have lost your reputation, it's not so bad, then you can do anything that you want."
Buyer beware, better yet, stay away from accoustical systems/Dertonearm/Brakemeier and place your trust in established brands and companies that have a history of providing superior quality and highest performing products, warranty, and a history of standing behind their promises.
Best of Luck
Guys thanks for the warning . Purchased a tonearm Fr Dietrich a few months ago through a dealer . So far the dealer has sold 5-6 tonearm with a couple of UNI DIN protractor . Transaction has been smooth except slight delay in receiving the 2nd batch of tonearm - about 1 month .
I was well aware of his reputation having follow threads in Audiogon & whatsbestforum & make this clear to the dealer who is my dealer .
Despite my favourable experience , I thk the warning is valid . Anytime U have to make payment in advance we should be careful & we should only deal thru dealers & make dealers responsible for all transactions
I have a lot of sympathy for those who have had bad experiences with dentonarm/Daniel. This kind of thing should not occur. On the other side of the ledger, though, I've bought a UNI-pro and UNI-P2S from him and my transactions went off without a hitch. Even two years later, he supplied a template for a new arm, air mailed within days, free of charge, as per our original agreement. I guess I've been lucky.
I read this thread in its entirety with some trepidation since I use a SMARTractor for setups I do for customers and have exchanged quite a few emails with and have met Kevin Wolff of VANA Ltd., the US distributor of Acoustical Systems. In our interactions Kevin has demonstrated time and again he is a stand up guy and a true professional. I asked him about these serious allegations of fraud leveled at Dietrich, not only because anyone who knows me knows I am all about honesty and integrity but also because sometimes reality varies quite a bit from what may be posted online.
Some may recall that Michael Fremer wrote about Dietrich and the SMARTractor quite a while ago. The distributor learned of the allegations from Michael and found out from Dietrich that it was all about a person to whom he never delivered a tonearm and also never took money from. Apparently there were many changes and misunderstandings, from which a smear campaign started. You can see the latest of this campaign above, due to misunderstandings and passing of false rumors assumed to be true. And as we know, once it's out there on the Internet, it stays there.
Although I am not one of Kevin's dealers but may be at some point since I know for sure he's a good egg, an open book and the kind of person I want to do business with, I felt an obligation to set the record straight (pun intended). I respectfully ask all reading this to take my comments to heart and give Dietrich the benefit of the doubt. If you have further questions please feel free to contact Dietrich or Kevin.
Hi all, We may think that this is our forum .But I noticed that the so called 'moderators' not only can decide which contribution to allow and which to refuse but also which
alredy published contribution can be removed afterward.
Censorchip and arbitrariness go ususally hand in hand but the question is why should we accept this? In-shore contribution about'Who cares' is removed as well my post
'I rest my case'. My post about the difference between the 'human character' an 'human capabilities' is refused because, according to the moderators,this post is more
suitable for a private discussion(sic!) The moderators obviously pretend to know better than the members which contributions are right and which wrong. Among those who are censored for longer as two years the most are academic so the pretention to 'know better' is at least questionable. Since the new owners of Audigon started the situation is continuously worsened such that from the best forum in the world we become an mediocre club. My suggestion is to start an collective action and formulate our own rules to which Agon need to confirm. We are the forum not the owners of the site. They earn their living thanks to us not the other way round. I think that collective thraet to terminate the membership will do the job.
I have sympathy for anyone who was cheated out of thousands of dollars in any sort of "deal". However, I bought a first-generation UNItractor from Daniel. I paid him in advance, and he delivered on time and kept his promises as regards the number of templates to be provided, even after the purchase was completed. Further, the instrument itself is impeccably made and very well thought out, even to the fact that it can be used with 3 different spindle diameters. I am in no way qualified to discredit or impugn those who claim to have been cheated, but I thought it was at least fair to say that at least one customer is very satisfied.
Well, simply no "smear campaign;" Dietrich, Accoustical Systems, Brakemeier, Dertonearm, and the infamous Kasugi over at Ebay are all the same characters with the same M.O., take your money, prevaricate regarding delivery, send non-working items, take prepayments and never deliver and refuse to make refunds, not honor warranties, and have "marketing" friends promoting the same "song and dance" to new problems in-the-making.
In one of my cases, while Dietrich Brakemeier/Accoustical Systems made many unfounded assertions trying to keep
my monies, AMEX refunded ~$8500.00 to me. Thank goodness I used AMEX with that transaction.
In the other cases, Dietrich Brakemeier/Accoustical Systems still owes me
refunds for items not delivered, not completed, and not working totaling $6240.00.
Mike tells me he is still owed $10s of thousands of refunds from Dietrich Brakemeier/Accoustical Systems...same operator, same pattern for the last couple of decades.
So, we have a fellow and Company, Dietrich Brakemeier/Acoustical Systems that has an ongoing history of being dishonest, why would an honest dealer want to represent that pair?
Unoear, You are as those Moslems who keep repeating the same
slogan 'Alah akbar'. You repeat the same story whenever
Dertonarm's name is mentioned irrespective of the context
or the issue involved. I advised each time to try the debt
collection agency as the adequate means for your problem
assuming of course that you have a legal claim. We are the
wrong place for your claim. It is as if you want to buy
bread in a hardware shop.
EssentialA, yikes...you should get out more; Mike's story is well documented and it is available to you.
Nandy, I always do love your effort. Again, you are, as usual, nonsensical while clearly personifying "artificial" intelligence.
In the meantime:
If you are wanting a real Quality, Superior, Better-Made, Better-Designed, and Better-Results designed alignment Dennison Device...look no further than Nerve Audio. It is a much better protractor and is a quality USA made product...save a bunch, better alignment, and Peace-of-Mind, all for around
$179.00. Also, no affiliation, just a fan of great performance and wonderful business practices.
I am neither a defender nor an attacker of Dertonearm. I am only here to say that my one deal with him went off without a hitch, and the product is of a quality and completeness to justify its high price.
But on another level, your recent posts confuse me. You refer to someone named "Mike" whom you say was cheated by Daniel out of thousands of dollars. I don't know who Mike is, except I can only guess it might be Mike L, a good person who resides in the Northwest of the US, well known to some of us. If it's THAT Mike to whom you refer, then I seem to recall another story that does not fit with your current attitude toward Daniel; did you not purchase a very rare and expensive air bearing turntable from Mike L? And did you not then find fault with its operation, not a mere glitch, but a claim that it was fundamentally and irretrievably flawed, such that Mike L was eventually forced to buy it back from you? And were not Dertonearm and Syntax among your defenders or your allies in that instance??? So what happened after that to turn you against DT? Or am I completely off base? If so, sorry.
Tawa, I am stunned by your reaction even more so with your
inscrutable logic. You started this thread with the question
where you can buy Uni din protractor.
My advice was to buy the Mint protractor. I own 3 of those
for each tonearm that I use. I got those before Uni Din
protracor existed. I don't own Uni Din protractor and could
consequently not recommend one. But I explained why
the Mint tractor and even requested John to explain the
differences between the spindle dimensions .I am glad that
I deed because his contribution was, as usual, very informative.
Who would then expect that you would join the choir of In-
shore and Unoear lamentation about Dertonarm? Both of them
had nothing to say about any tractor whatever but joined
your thread only with the intention to incriminate Dertonarm.
Their own 'level'can be seen from their 'contribution' to
your thread. In-shore with his 'there is a canal out front
of your building' (01-14)illustrate in what kind of company
you prefer to belong.
I made not one single statement about any of Dertonarm's
products nor deed I advesed anyone to buy any.
But I need to say to be proud to be his friend. He is the
most eloquent person that I have ever meet while his designs
speak for them self. One of the best turntables ever, the
amps (one of which Unoer bought)and recently the most
innovative headshell the Arcehe,the best tractor ever ,one
of the best tonearms and one of the best MC carts. I own the
Arche and the Archon. Those are his merits and those are
the 'things' in which we are interested in this forum.
What the merits are of In-shore and Unoer you should enumerate.
"I am sure that if you wish to experiment without spending a lot, it would be possible to use the free Chpratz protractor from VE."
Are you familiar with Chpratz? It's a straight line from the spindle with a calibrated grid the whole way. Uni-Din nulls are 63.3 and 112.5mm. Here are alignment error curves:
Maybe the alignment could come in handy if there's not enough headshell slot length to use one of the Lofgren alignments? Alignment error seems particularly noticeable (to me) at the beginning, and uni-din is the worst there of all standard alignments.
Did you ever try nulls at say 70 and 124 for lower outer distortion?
Thanks for the Uni-Din nulls - I'd presumed they were around that, similar to FR66.
Do keep in mind that small errors in offset and overhang can lead to big errors in distortion at different points on the record, or not, depending on whether they add or cancel.
No, never tried an alignment that optimized the outer part of the record. I have a few albums with extra long sides and the groove goes nearly to the label. I don't think they'd fare well with such an alignment.
Uni-Din might come in handy in a situation where you run out of room with the headshell slots, to make a particular alignment. Like with an arm designed for Stevenson and you would prefer Lofgren B which requires 2-3mm more overhang, depending on effective length. 63.3 is a lot closer than either Lofgren alignment. Perhaps popular with Rega owners and many popular Japanese decks of yesteryear?
to be clear; I have never had any personal dealings with 'dertonearm' Deitrich Brakemeier. so the 'mike' Unoear is referring to is not me.
if you have lots of time on your hands and want to read up on the conflict Unoear refers to; here you go..
further; Unoear sold the Rockport I sold him to a gentleman in the U.K. who happens to own 3 other similar Rockports. I did not buy the Rockport back from Unoear.
dertonearm and Syntax convinced Unoear (as described to me by Unoear at the time) there was a problem with the Rockport tonearm ( never clear exactly what it was), and then dertonearm sold him a bill of goods which is their conflict. I was the easy target to attack. the U.K. buyer of the Rockport (who is a friend) reports that all was and is well with that same Rockport tonearm.
I've moved on and hopefully so has Unoear. i certainly wish him the best and understand why he was upset at the time.
Yes, the wrong west coast (NW) Mike L...the correct west coast (CS) Mike L. is CSL in the thread.
Yah, Mik, not Mike, in the UK has the 3 Sirius lll's and 2 Sirius lls, he's a Rocport dealer and a fan...a starting five of Rockport Turntables :).
Also, UK Mik does have the tonearm figured out; he loves the Koetsu Stone Bodies and Goldmund carts...heavy machines with very robust VTFs...sort of, why Syntax is now a fan of the Koetsu Stone Body carts with the issue-laden axiom.
Unbelievable game, NW Mike :).
I have advised Rega owners to try a similar alignment which avoids having to slide the cartridge overmuch.
But as you say, it means more distortion on the outer inch or so.
For albums recorded right into the label, it also depends whether that last track or movement is a quiet one or a loud one, and what profile stylus is used.
I suppose it all does highlight the fact that every alignment is ultimately decided by the inner and outer recorded radii and LPs don't fare well in that regard: an alignment for seven inch singles played with an 8" arm will have less distortion than any LP set up...
Sometimes I wonder about our perceptions regarding our frame of reference. Deviations are judged "wrong", when in fact they might be mostly just different.
I question the use of the term distortion in reference to alignment error, not that it's entirely wrong per say, but it implies more than what it actually is.
Alignment error causes a small amount of phase difference between channels and outside of that I think most of the error is subtractive. Are you aware of any distortion measurements specific to alignment?
How can some people proclaim a straight pivoting arm with no offset as sounding superior? With one null point there must be much greater alignment error. Not only that, the shortest version arm (ViV Rigid Float) is said to sound best!
Could it be that torsional forces on the cantilever cause more distortion than a few degrees of alignment error?
I don't really have an answer here, but it's an interesting question.
I used to buy mintLp whenever I changed tonearm . Recently 2 of my friends bought Dietrich's Axiom arm & compared the mintlp protractor & UNI Din protector . According to 1 of my friends , after comparing , he much prefer UNI Din protractor . We all thought mintLP with the ultra accurate & fine curve lines with mirror to take care of parallax error will be better . We are wrong
MintLp is an arc protractor, is it not? They're only good if mounting distance is in perfect agreement with the protractor. Best used on factory mounted arms.
Your friend's experience is meaningless to us without specifics. Some people use 2 protractors with the same alignment, to check 1 against the other.
If you know mounting distance anyone can download a free arc protractor at Conrad Hoffman site, or conventional ones at VE. Fancy protractors might be more convenient (I have a Dennesen), but one isn't more accurate than another, if constructed properly, and used properly.