Tube Equipment: Gimmick?

Hey Gunbei, your Dallas friend is absolutely correct; more pixels does NOT a better image make. I've recently given into the digital realm in my own profession as it is a necessary tool these days. I purchased a Nikon D2H at the end of the year to facilitate a portrait project I've been working on. The D2H is the recent state-of-the-art 35mm digital/pro SLR with a new technology used on the chip (Nikons first proprietory technology - they'd been using Sony chips before this). In spite of its sacarafice in pixel count to accomodate faster shooting speeds (and a more spontaneous capability) the images I've produced are both sharper and tighter when upsampled than either the D1X or the D100, both of which have higher pixel counts (D1X is a 5mp camera, D100 is a 6mp, while the new D2H is only a 4mp camera). The quality of the D2H images are more film-like (Analogue if you will) then either the D1X or the D100. To relate that more directly to Audio gear, this would be like someone judging the gear JUST by the numbers. In the case of the cameras it is better to just user your two eyes to make a more informed decision, and with the audio gear, as we all should know by now, use your own ears.

Marco

PS I still prefer an image produced on film over one produced on any digital camera, yet, as in audio, they are coming pretty darn close to one another! I know if I showed most folks some of the images produced with the D2H....or a Canon 1DS....or some of the larger format digital backs I use on jobs, that most people would not be able to tell the difference, and some would even consider digital 'superior' in the remarkable apparent sharpness and detail in renders. Yet, like audio, some of the beauty lost may be in the transitions between the tones, and how smooth (natural) those transitions occur.

Some people just don't get it. And that is okay by me.

It is one thing to try and offer advice to someone who lacks perspective in an attempt to help them.

It is quite another to offer advice to someone who lacks perspective yet thinks they know it all.

Bazaar perspectives have a place in society, as does outright ignorance. Sometimes they are one in the same.

In retrospect, this thread might be considered the perfect troll! Time to take the old F3 on a stroll. :-)

I have an old Nikon FM2N and a new Olympus C5000 Zoom and I can't use either one very well.
Gumbei pretty well brought the fox to ground with his final few words. Look beyond the hair. You'll find no argument there.

>

I here this talk all the time. And an even better one I hear is " We're not running a mom and pop store here "

In fact I got so sick of hearing these ignorant statements from unqualified individuals. I finally wagered with a guy at a local Circuit City store. I brought him over to my house and let him hear my system. I don't think I have ever seen anyone sit my their mouth held wide open for such a long time.

Take this unqualified gent to a high-end audio dealer. Sit him in front a good tube system, and watch him eat crow!

I presently am listening to the H-Cat P12, a ss piece. While I also have a ss sacd player, the Wright/Sony 9000, I also have a tube analog stage sacd player, the Exemplar/Denon 2900. Until very recently I had only tube gear. While I cannot understand anyone preferring Krell gear rather than the better tube gear, everything hinges on what a piece sounds like. I do think it takes something exceptional for ss to better tubes.

Tbg, I think the only reason tubes sound better to some people is they prefer that sound, while other people dont.

taste in sound is no different than taste in food. What is good for some people is not good for others.
I heared a tube setup very recently, and while it did sound good, i still like solid state better.

My girlfriend loves broccoli, i hate broccoli. She cannot understand why i do not like it. I just dont.

this is beyond a performance issue and more of an issue of taste. What tastes good to your ears.

Slappy, what do tubes "sound" like? My OTL amp sounds extremely transparent with musical bass, textured mids and the best high frequency extension I have ever heard. Saying it is a matter of preference depends on your experience and perspective to carry any weight.

I understand why some people say "some people prefer the tube sound". Personally I think it is because they have not heard the best tube equipment. The best tubes don't have a "sound". The equipment is transparent with textured mids, extended highs... not overly warm mids like some people think "tubes sound like" or are supposed to sound like.

That's just not it. And it is the primary reason why a lot of people never come to realize what tube owners lucky enough to own quality equipment already know. And it is also why most tube owners would never go back to solid state.

Ahmen Slappy! Fuck broccoli!!! Brussel Sprouts have it all over broccoli! Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to have their head examined! Whoops, perhaps we should move this discussion over to "Vegigon". I hear the listings are free right now, and you can buy a head of lettuce for .53 cents (+3.3% for PayPal). They got those hybrid weird-ass veggies there too, like broccoliflower. Look, if you really must have a broccoli-like vegatable, I say just spring for the real thing and get the broccoli. Synergy is critical among vegatables....mix that broccoli up with some baked-alaska desert and you'll be farting up a storm till sunrise and sending your girlfriend running for the hills. Fuck broccoli I say. Go for the Analog taste of Brussel Sprouts.....and have the Baked Alaska anyway! Let the dudes with the Krell gear boil their broccoli on those heat fins and live a lonely pathetic solitary life in their fetid stench, redolent of the horrific lack of synergy in their intestines!

Marco

I like broccoli.

It's an awesome colonic catalyst that's useful while levitating your girlfriend off the bed when you give her a Dutch Oven.

If your tube equipment is on while you perform, the extra warmth in the room enhances the sweet aroma.

Slappy,

The point is this: There is good tube gear out there, and these sales people at your local retail stores, and electronic ignorants ( who are educated beyond their own intelligence ) are living in the past. They are still giving us the same sales pitch SS promoted, when all the mainstream stereo manufacturers gave us when they made the switch to SS.

Tube equipment is more pleasing to the ear, is just that simple. SS gear is irritating to the ear, I don't care if it is Kell, Plinus, Levinson, ARC, or who ever. The fact is this, your ears are irradiated by SS gear. Maybe one won't notice if only listening for a short while. But hours of listening does produce a slight irritation on SS gear.

Also the mass market must tell you that tube gear just plain sucks. And they must brain-wash their sales people into thinking this. If they didn't then millions of people would be crying for tube gear again. And we certainly couldn't have that now, could we? I think ( just like in my case ) if we lined people up and gave them a listen to good tube gear. There would be a major revival on the audio market.

Jax2,

Please kindly watch your mouth, I find your profanity appalling This is a audio forum, not your local bar :)

Slappy is spot-on KT88. There are a whole butt-load (whoops, hope I didn't offend you there) of SS-loving Audiophiles out there who are anything but irritated by there SS systems. You seem to mistake YOUR opinion for EVERYONE's opinion, and even more dangerous, for fact. That said, I happen to agree with your opinion regarding tube gear and the naievety (where's the spell-check when you need it?) of the general public towards it. I don't know if tubes were panhandled to the public by the sales-people you so readily lump into a pigeon-hole in the floor of an outhouse, whether it would be as widely accepted as you might think. I think the maintenance issues would keep it from being so embraced. Most folks just don't want to fuss with the stuff, they just want to get their pretty metal box home, hook it up and plug it in (for some, that's a bit too much), and walk away while the 200-disk player spits out song-after-song. I don't think hearing tubes is going to change that for most. Just my opinion though...

OK, now I'll go wash my hands with strong soap after typing all those nasty and offensive posts. After that I'll stay after and compose an essay why the use of offensive language should be confined to local bars and brothels. Send me your address KT88 and I'll send you a copy. Please, in the mean time, accept my most humble appologies and let me assure you that it will most certainly happen again.....I just can't help it....somebody, get me a doctor!

Marco

Jax2,

I find your sarcasm both annoying and refreshing. An oxymoron I know. But life is an oxymoron, or better still a paradox. Yet I continue in my passion, and also my obssesion to find the truth.

The fact that you choose to use profanity is of course YOUR choice. but it is also the CHOICE of the people around you not to hear IT. This is after all a community site, and you have no right to impose your profanity on people here. No more than you have the right to smoke a cigarette in a public establishment.

But of course I know how you are feeling about me BEING OFFENDED by your profanity. I once employed the use of profanity in my life. And of course I was quite offended when people were offended to my use of it. The same way I was offended when someone was offended by my cigarette smoke. I couldn't understand how someone could be offended by my choice of words, or my cigarette smoke until I decided to stop using vulgar language, and stopped smoking. Then I could easily see how both were offensive.

I'm sure there are things in your life that other people do, that you find offensive? But perhaps if you talk to them, they don't find them offensive, nor can they understand why you find them offensive.

Well, I won't comment any further. If you want to continue this theme, maybe you should read the " forum guide lines "

peace........

I think people who are offended by vulgar language are just thin skinned. Either way, i guess you have every right to be offended.

I think i gained a new insight to your position on why people who dont agree with you are "Lesser people" cause the way you talk you sure seem to have elevated yourself to the pinnacle of existance where non other is your equal.

I think ill stay down here in my shallow existance of vulgar debauchery and drink a couple beers and work on cars with my buddy Marco while we "Enjoy" solid state gear.

Too bad you are so elevated that you cannot appreciate not only the finer things in life, but the lesser ones as well eh?

Hey marco, if yer ever in the denver area, get ahold of me dude.

Tubes su** the big one!
They look like glowing phalluses and I think that is the biggest attraction! I don’t know about you but I don’t need no stinking glowing phallus sticken out of my amp!
Especially the whimpering SET crowd, the biggest bunch of tin-eared, Viagra popping losers on the planet since we had the Julian-Hirsh inspired "objective" audio craze of the 70's... If they aren't deaf their damn good actors! WHY do they insist that since this is all THEIR feeble minds can grasp in audio, that everyone else who disagrees with them is an idiot. Frickin wankers like Hiroyasu Kondo and the rest of the post-modern feudal militants. First we are overrun with their stinken Hondas and now this.

Good day,
I remain

That's hilarious KT88...."Annoying and Refreshing"!! Well, I don't think I'll be selling any widgets or consumables with that logo. Chew Doublemint Gum for an Annoying and Refreshing break from your day! I'm glad at least you find some redeaming virtue to them.

Hey, no worries on my part, and I completely understand that you are offended by my language. I really just use it for humor and emphasis. Some folks actually find it amusing. Some, like yourself, do object to it. My wife finds it rather crass and offensive too...........so I get it, and no, I am not offended nor annoyed that it offends you, and am glad that you speak up about it. It's funny, but I don't speak that way at all, or even remotely like that. I do like to write that way....it is another side of me I guess a repressed side. I really ought to get some analasys for this! I sure think it provides some comic relief from some otherwise stone-serious threads about the importance of the Emperors New System.

I do have this to say about your comparison of this infringement of your personal rules of etiquette (cultivated and refined by, no doubt, wisdom beyond my grasp), to smoking a cigarette in public: There is a world of difference. With a cigarette you'd have the choice to breath in the smoke, or leave the room, and presumably not have the same access to what should be a public place. Here it is completely YOUR choice to click on my post and read it. You may adjust your expecations accordingly, as you might with any other member of this forum to either read my posts, which frequently cross over lines you may find offensive, or skip over them altogether if you are offended by them. Though they may push the boundries of forum guidelines, I think the posts are ultimately utterly benign and only serve to emphasize a point and or bring a smile to some, but certainly NOT to everyone. I also humbly think that there is an underlying message to many of my posts that may have some value to some, and some of my posts are just as grey and dismally to the point many others I read here. But if you want one more of those audiophiles in a grey flannel suit and tie that looks and writes the same as 87% of the rest of them .....look elsewhere. Do not read my posts. They are clearly identified with my user ID "jax2". It's really that simple. I take no offense that you don't appreciate my writing, and I'm sure you are not alone. There are many members here who's posts I avoid for one reason or another. If I don't know someone, and start reading a post, and something rubs me the wrong way about it, I doubt very much I'd take the time to read it, much less to look at other posts by the same person.

Peace back atcha' Kt88!

Marco

The fact is this.

Ive heard good tube setups. And i enjoyed them very much.

I still like solid state better.

That does not make me wrong, but what IS a rather pompous and arrogant statement is to say that "tubes sound better than solid state gear" and to boast that as a fact.

Tube gear suffers horribly from distortion. It is a pleasing distortion and can be a rather beneficial distortion, but im pretty sure that when Alicia Keys was playing the piano, that the piano did not send out a 2nd order harmonic distortion.

Distortion is distortion.

It does not take a genious to realize that if you look at the wave entering the Tube amp, and the wave LEAVING the tube amp, that the wave IS altered, and THUS, NOT the origional sound of the recording.

Solid state is more accurate, this is a proven fact. SS does not need any pixies and fairy dust to explain this fact, it does however have mathematical proof and the tests show it as well.

When Diana Krall is in yer living room singing, she is not introducing any 2nd order harmonic distortion either.

the tube amp does. Plain, simple, fact. Distortion is distortion folks.

Now im not bashing tubes, i think they sound great, and one day i will probably have a set of tube monoblocks just so i can mix things up from time to time.

Buying all this gear is about listening to music on your own terms. Some are purists who want perfect linear responce and frown on tone controls, some want to have the ability to change various aspects of the music to suit to thier tastes as well.

To me, to MY ears, Solid State Amplifiers sound great. Sure, there are some that suck, just like there are some tubes that suck, but im talking about MY enjoyment. My preference.
I prefer solid state. plain, simple, and i am correct. Tubes just dont really do it for me. I like the accuracy of solid state.

To state that preference has nothing to do about it, that it is all experience, well, maybe you need some more experience of your own. Such a definitive statement is about as idiodic as they get.

If you prefer Tubes and thier Distortion, then that is fine with me. Sit back, have your favorite drink, relax, and listen to YOUR music on YOUR terms and have fun.

I will be at home, doing the same, listening to my music on MY terms and enjoying it every bit as much as you.

And i can listen to solid state indefinatly and i dont get irratated by it. Maybe if solid state hurts your ears that much, you should consult a physician and see about making sure your ears are not going the way of the dodo.

Just dont sit there with a holier-than-thou attitude and tell me that my taste and my preference is wrong. Because when you say that, then I am right, and YOU are wrong.

Clueless - I am deeply offended by your remarks. Yet I'm curiously refreshed as well. In fact, I'm getting a tingling in my loins reading it over again, and yet again! Could you expand on the "glowing phallus" part?!

Marco

Jax2,

"' annoying and refreshing " is exactly what I wanted to say. Annoying because sarcasm is in fact " annoying " Refreshing because I to have a bit of sarcasm in me, and I have found that people with a bit of sarcasm have spunk. I like people with spunk!! I don't however consider myself to be a person " in a gray flannel suit " quite the opposite. My life never has a dull moment!!! I have no doubt Jax2, that even though I find your language offensive ( and I don't drink beer, but I don't mind if you do ) your sarcasm is accompanied by humor as well. Yes I have no doubt, face-to-face I could call you friend.

I will not ( and do not avoid anyone's ) your posts. I prefer to respect all people's opinions, but I reserve the right to tell them my opinion about how they offended me.

Slappy, I will take your comments about my elevating ME over everyone else. I WILL do some SELF-reflection at the very heart. However!!! as the saying goes: "" It takes one, to know one " I hope your not squirming in your chair to much :)

keep it coming ( umm the posts, not the profanity ) Jax2. I enjoy your thoughts!!!

SS is a gray flannel suit!!!

KT-88,

Your definitive statements of tubes over SS are rather dumb.
Your inability to grasp the concept that people might not like the same things you like and that it is ok, rather disturbs me.
Your notion that your beliefs are the end-all-be-all of fact blows my mind.

In fact, you have demonstrated almost every aspect of a person that that causes me to not want to want to get to know them.

Yet, somehow, i feel that yer an ok person, and i would probably get along with you in person just fine.

you are a strange person.

But I think you might be sitting a little too close to your tubes. :)

Copied from Audiogon's " Moderation guide lines "

What we will decline:
We hope to decline very few submissions, but we refuse to post statements that take away from the usefulness of these forums. Here are some examples of the types of posts that will be rejected most of the time:

Questions that you can answer for yourself by searching the previous answers, or by following a known web link, or by reading the manual.
Questions that only you can answer, such as "Will that subwoofer have enough bass for me?"
Questions with no answer, such as "Is this amp any good?"
Posts that do not give sufficient information about your system, your experience, or your tastes.
Posts that are off-topic or casual bantering.
Posts that are obviously trying to sell something.
Posts that are condescending of a person or their system.
Posts about other members (as opposed to their comments)
Audiogon related questions or comments (send via email instead).
Spam, insults, excessive profanity, racial/ethnic slurs, and trolls.

Perhaps we should all step back, take a deep breath, and start over :)

Kt88 - Yes, I took it that way......I really was amused by it, I was not making fun of you for having made the comment...I really thought it was a very funny oxymoron. I end every post with my name, Marco, and you are welcome to use it rather than call me "jax2". FYI I like an occasional beer, but am far more partial to red wine. I think Slappy's comment was made in a spirit of comradery (I don't work on cars much either, but do all my own work on my motorcycles...I can usually figure out cars, but prefer two wheels to four). I also prefer tubes, but have heard some pretty amazing SS systems that have their own merits, I just prefer those that tubes offer better and have not heard any SS gear that sounds that way. Slappy, I don't know about curves and 2nd order harmonic distortion (I do know what they are, but I don't care much beyond that), but I do know what I like to hear. I never really gave a rat's-a.....oh god, there I go again...must be Terrets Syndrome.....I simply don't care what the numbers, graphs and bars say...my ears keep drawing me back to tubes. If I listened to more intensely dynamic music I may be swayed to the SS side, but it is pretty rare that I my listening leans in that direction. Was that better Kt88? The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. Tubes rule! Everyone should like tubes best! That's it, simple and to the point. Polite and succinct. Everyone oughta' like me now. Don't rock the boat. Tubes are the best thing that ever happened to the the high end! Many people say so, and so do I. If you don't like it well then Screw...er, well you can just go jump in a lake. Fuckin'A Bubba! Damn straight.....oh hell, I'm hopeless! Cat piss, dung heap, fart, poop. You gotta love the tubes man! I got tubes. If God has a high-end system, you know it's gotta be tubes all the way! If Jesus were to come back for that second coming, the first thing he'd do would be to get himself a tube-based system. Buddha too, in fact I know Buddha was talking about going from push/pull to SET a few years back. I think his system is up on AudioAsylum but he may not have had time to update it. I wouldn't let my dog listen to an SS system! Once I brought an SS system into the house just to try it out and my dog ran away...couldn't find her for four days. The bitch had packed her bowls and moved on down to the tube room in the high-end shop down on Roosevelt. Told me she wouldn't come back till I got rid of that SS boat anchor! Those dogs can hear things we humans can't even dream about hearing. I don't know about you folks, but I'd sure like to hear some more polarizing views on the subject......Brussel sprouts anyone?

Marco

The REAL advantage of 8X10 is super sharp image ( thx to German Optics.) and Super Large negative size. In photo equipment, the lens and image output size are the things we care for. It has absolutely nothing to do with camera body. You can use a real light meter to measure the lighting condition so you don't even need a "super" camera body. Digital photography is a totally different subject.
There are lot more electronic component involved.
To compare a film (tube gear) vs digital (Solid State) gear is a good analogy.
We now have fuji's 20 megapix medium format camera vs say 8X10 camera. The 8X10 is still better overall. The Fuji can be sharp but not as refined as film at this time. It doesn't mean that digital will not get there but we're not there yet.

You always have take your own physical sensitivity into consideration. Visual is always more acccurate than hearing and easier to proof. Hearing on the other hand is very subjective due to the nature of our ear. You always have to ask yourself how to define beauty and what sound good to you.

Back to Tube gear vs Solid state. IMHO, I would say the top 30% of tube preamp are pretty good. However, I would say maybe only the top 5% of tube preamp are pretty good. However, if you look at the cost factor, the SS always at least 2 to 10 times more expensive. The manufacture understands the market strategy and they've decided to jack up the price on tube gears too. The tube preamps are no longer cheap these days because the SS has inflated the tube gear due to poor performance from SS.

If someone give me a free $5000 SS preamp and force me to use it exclusively (which means I can't sell it) then I will not take it. I rather pay my own to get a tube preamp because I can't appreicate the "beauty" of the SS preamp.

It never ceases to amaze me, how the heated threads that stray far from the original persons intent. And turn into insults towards one's personal character, seem to be the threads that last the longest. The guy that started this thread is probably wondering if started WWW3. It never ceases to amaze me how people get completely torqued about someone else's opinion differing from theirs. And what's more is they quickly judge another person's words or character by reading what this person typed. Hmmmmmmm I hope our next job interviewer grants us more grace :)

Slappy, allow me to give you a DEFINITE statement. I am definitely appreciative that have enough confidence in me to speak freely about my character. I will not turn and bite you like a scorpion would :) I am still standing here, waiting to hear what you have to say. As far as a little strange? You might be right, but let me remind you of this. We can only use ourselves to judge another, this is what determines what is " normal or strange " so based on what is ticking inside of you, I am strange. I think the best description I have heard on normal: " It's a cycle on your dryer " Another thought on how we judge is best shared with the way a radio signal is sent. It all depends on the condition of the receiver, and the condition of the sender. If either is on the wrong channel, you have major problems!

Marco, what I said to Slappy, I say to you. Your free to say what you want, am I?

Getting back to tube vs SS. SS does produce distortion!!! I have been a technician long enough to know that every piece of electronic equipment does produce distortion of some kind. And SS does produce fatigue, maybe small enough that you quickly explain it on something else in your life. Is SS more accurate? When BAT first came onto the market their goal was to have SS and tube gear that sounded the same. CJ is another that comes to mind, their SS gear sounds like tube and visa versa.

Oh yes, film is still more accurate than digital. Ask any good photographer :)

A typo here. It should have been "top 5% of SS preamp"
Another thing I would like to add is: There is almost nothing new in SS preamp. Most of them use JFET and Op-amp to amplify the signal. However, many manufactures are more focus on the new generation of hybrid tube preamp. I always found the tube has bigger sound stage and better image seperation due to the physical nature of the tube with larger plate ( more information gets transferred ) than the condensed transistor circuits ( more complicated but compressed.)

If you have not heard the top of line tube preamp then you can't really claim that SS preamp is more accurate (it might be true on paper but it is not true in sound.)

For amp, it is another story. I think the top 20% of both tube and SS amp are good. However, the SS counterpart always cost $$$$$. Depends on your speaker requirements, some outrageous power hungry speakers can work better with SS amp. On the other hand, the super high sensitive speakers only work well with tube amp.

Stop attacking each other and make yourself look like a 3 year old bully. No Gimmick in tube equipment. You just need to own both and figure out what your ear and brain want.

Slappy, you need to re-read what I wrote. I said that saying "it is a matter of preference depends on your experience to carry any weight."

You say you have heard good stuff. Tell us what that is. If your "preference" is based on a lack of "experience" with different tube systems then what does that really mean? That's my point. Hearing a couple of tube amps does not mean you know how tube amps sound. The varying design of tube amps is very important. An OTL tube amp does not sound like a transformer coupled tube amp.

Tubes are not more accurate, but they are more real.

I suspect you will be moving along to digital amps next, no?

Maybe someone can correct me here...

The vast majority of SS amps obtain those low distrotion measurements (note my careful choice of words) by using a significant amount of negative feedback. Sure, this negative feedback makes an amp measure well with a pure 1KHz sine wave, but how does that negative feedback make music sound? I have my opinion...what's yours?

Isn't the negative feedback that makes SS amps measure well actaully "distorting" the music? My AES Sixpacs are configured for 0 db of negative feedback - but I can apply 10 db of negative feedback if I choose to make my amps measure better. However, I choose not to.

There are some SS amps that use zero global negative feedback in their designs (Ayre comes to mind). I have not had an opportunity to audition any of Charles' SS designs, but they do intrigue me.

I agree alot with what Jim2 is saying. I think that much of what people perceive as "tube sound" is really "output transformer sound", since it is the output transformers that are generally creating the rolloff and bloat that some people mistake for "tube sound".

Regarding tube equipment being a "gimmick", it was the original form of audio amplification and was around long before the transistor was invented, so I don't think it can be called a "gimmick". I am of the opinion that properly made tube gear can be the very best sounding equipment possible. There are drastic differences in the sound quality of various tube amplifiers, just as there are drastic differences in the sound quality of various transistor amplifiers. The best of either technology can be very good indeed. At this time, and including all of the many pieces of gear that I've heard so far, I prefer the sound quality of the best tube gear.

I always had SS equipment, always was SS guy (did not know any better).
But bad thing happened to me, I heard good tube equipment on audio show (Lamm, Hovland, others), and behold the best ML or mbl gear just sounded like canned music. Spectral was different, powerful but very unmusical.
Now I know how inferior SS equipment is, and do not like it. It is not a good filling. SS guy should not listen to good tubes it can ruin their world view.

Holy shee-ott, look at all these new posts! This is getting far too intellectual for my dumb ass. I'm going back to fixing tits.

So much partial or misinformation.
ALL amps start to distort immediately. There is always some sonic degradation all you can do is keep it to a minimum.
Tube amps tend to produce even order harmonic distortion which is more musical sounding. It is more musical because it is an even multiple of the note or an octave difference. That always sounds better to the ear. That being said they tend to get canceled in the output transformer anyway on push pull designs.
SS amps tend to produce odd order harmonics which do not sound as musical as it isn’t a perfect multiple, it is considered a 1/3 or an integral of a third.
Personally I like tubes for everything above 250hz and use solid state for everything 250 and below.

It is a very good point that opinions should be weighed against one's experience. My experience with SS has been limited to mostly very expensive boutique systems using the likes of ML and Krell amplification, thoughtfully assembled with good wires in decent listening rooms. To some of those systems I've had pretty extensive exposure. I have minimal experience listening to more esoteric SS gear though. My impressions of the better SS systems I have heard have suitably impressed me enough to keep my mind open, in spite of my recent humorous rant to the contrary (which was intended purely for entertainment). The more extensive experience I've had with an all ML system as well as a bi-amped Krell system has left me suitably impressed, but ultimately I found myself not nearly as engaged as with some of the better tube sytems I've heard and owned. I find my modest SET tube system at home more engaging than my friend's $50K Levinson system (which is no slouch by any means and has some really impressive merits). He also is more impressed by my far less expensive tube system and may switch over to tubes in the near future. His system is a master of detail and impact, but lacks the air, holgraphy and gentle grace of the SET system I prefer. I did not find his system fatiguing after prolonged listening and I have listened to it many times extensively. I've also recently owned a Pass Labs Aleph 5 which I enjoyed very much, but again, the qualities I did like about it are better expressed by tube gear. That said, in spite of being in this hobby over 20 years, I'd have to say that, considering all that is out there, my listening experiences have been quite limited in the range of possibilities. Therefore I hesitate to pass judgement so readily. Ultimately I still maintain, to each his own.

As far as film vs. digital I'll make sure to ask the next "good photographer" I meet to enlighten me on the subject.

Marco

"Oh yes, film is still more accurate than digital. Ask any good photographer"

Yeah, but in most cases a scanned neg or chrome doesn't res up as well as a good digital file. Ask and any good retoucher. :•)

Hey something just dawned on me, maybe some of the tube guys have been too long away from ss and maybe same for the ss guys.Come to think of it I haven't listened to a ss amp since that digital amp a few months back and before that at an audio show. Nothing at the show grabbed my attention like the better tube-based systems but you know how show conditions aren't always ideal for such comparisons.

Slappy I'll say this in concurrence with Jim and TWL, not all tube amps sound the same. I sure don't like rolled off highs and that bloated bass and an overly euphonic midrange that renders a sameness to the music, it gets kind of boring listening to music where there is particular “character” to the presentation. I am not knocking that sound to those that like it I just don't include myself in that group. I have owned a few of them, still have a pair of MC-60's that used to sound more in that direction before I did some mods that eliminated much of that character, got rid of the tube rectifiers and put a SS one in. It made a definite improvement in the bass but it is still a bit too tubey in the mids and the top end is not extended enough for my tastes yet sounds a lot less tubey than some of the less expensive tube designs I’ve heard over the past few years. Try to seek out a tube amp based system that doesn't use an output transformer. The Joule is a real thing of beauty, it has that sense of realness that you hear live instruments produce without the bloat and mushiness; you get the harmonics of instruments in their full glory. It takes plenty of speed for an amp to recreate this sense of realism so don’t for a minute think they can’t. As TWL notes, it is more often the fault of the transformer than any other factor in this area of tube amp performance. This harmonic realism is the one major area that SS has a tough time competing with tubes in my experience. I don't know why this is so and it doesn't seem as apparent to some listeners as others. Some that like ss are more impressed with the dynamics that a big ss amp presents. Some insist that harmonically, ss sounds better or at least the equal of a great tube amp like the Joule, I haven’t heard one come close. A comparably powered tube amp with some umph in the bottom would necessarily be a quite imposing beast to be sure but some of them can definitely go head to head with ss maybe missing a bit of that hallmark slam that Jiwitn’s Krell's definitely have.

So the bottom line to this discussion from my perspective is there are tube amps and there are tube amps, there are ss amps and I suppose there are better ss amps, the best of the current crop I haven’t listened to in a suitable well set-up system. The best of each may be closer to each other than we realize taking into consideration the speakers they will be used with and the rest of the system. The problem for me is I haven’t heard a SS amp that offers that harmonic realism that is so important to me. Maybe its out there awaiting my discovery and amazement at finding it. Or maybe no ss device can replicate what tubes do so very well which may not be important to other listeners. I try to make sense out of this ongoing debate but there is no sense to it. It seems to me, all said and done that we each hear differently and have different priorities as to what is most important in the reproduction of music otherwise things would be a lot more obvious than they are and this thread wouldn’t continue to reappear in different guises as often as it does.

Per Marco request - As a base of reference for my above comments I have listened extensively to ss amps the likes of Krell, Threshold (owned one of those), Mark Levinson, Parasound, Adcom, ARC, Forte, and Bryston. I have listened over the years to products from Pass, Gryphon, McCormack, Halcro (after 10 minutes of this system I started getting bored, what's the fuss about? Set-up I suppose) and several others I can't remember.

My favorite ss amps to date were the Threshold SA-1's which I loved and the Pass Aelph. The rest of the systems with the above components didn't move me at all except an Apogee/Adcom system from years back. Great tube systems always take hold of the emotions conveyed by music in a way that eludes SS in my experience. To me the issue isn't tubes versus SS but musical involvement. Maybe some day a SS amp will have my name on it. If it comes around, I'll buy it.

Why has no-one brought up the assertations of Cheever's MIT thesis mentioned early in this thread?? Cheever claims/proves(?) that non-negative feedback (open loop) single-ended designs, either tubed or SS, are superior in TONAL QUALITY both objectively and subjectively.

Linear triodes create pleasing LOW-ORDER (2nd, 3rd, etc) distortion, while most SS designs are plagued with nasty-sounding HIGH-ORDER (5th, 6th, and up) distortion. The physiology of our ears is such that our ears actually create 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion OF THEIR OWN in the cochlea canal. This effect serves to "cancel out" triode distortion preserving harmonic integrity. Interestingly, our ears also cancel out higher order distortion that follows a PARTICULAR PATTERN. However, most SS designs do not follow that pattern. SS may have incredibly low THD figures, but the negative feedback required to do that is what screws up the harmonic portrayal. Cheever asserts that EVEN AS LITTLE AS 3dB OF FEEDBACK will screw up the sound.

SS designs with ZERO feedback and the correct PATTERN of rising order distortion may IN THEORY sound as good as well-implemented single-ended tube designs. I'd encourage everyone to study the thesis for themselves, and post your thoughts accordingly.

Ok,

here is is, the thing i just dont get about you Tube guys.

I have repeatedly said i like tube equipment, but i prefer SS. I dont understand why people cannot accept that somebody preffers solid state amplifiers over tubes.

It seems like everyone who preffers tubes thinks that thier opinion is the only right one.

Well quite frankly, solid state has never given me listening fatigue. Maybe it is because im only 26 (27 in two weeks happy b-day me!) and my hearing is in fantastic shape and it does not fatigue me.

As for Data Numbers Testing, I know that testing is not the be-all end all. But if you set up test gear in front of the singer, and record the singing, then play it back over both forms, there will be more distortion in tube gear. Im not sayin that is a bad thing, alot of people credit that distortion to the rich full sound they are getting from tubes.

It is plain and simple, i like Solid State better. I think it is less maintenance, it saves energy (maybe not class A) and i think it sounds full, rich and involving. I like it better than Tube gear.

People like different things. That is a plain fact. Whats good for the goose is not always whats good for the gander.

Anwyays, Its too bad that alot of people seemingly cannot accept the fact that somebody preffers something different.

And to say "you just havent heared good tube gear" is just a lame statement. Does EVERYONE have to like what you like?

Hey, i like the Broncos. Does that mean if you like the Raiders that i am WRONG in liking the broncos? Does that mean that i do not have enough experience with football to appreciate the raiders?

I mean, what im basically hearing here, is that TUBE GEAR is better than Solid State gear in every aspect and everyone who does not agree with this preference is wrong.

There are alot of very intelligent and educated people on this board, i just dont understand how so many intelligent and educated people can be so naive to the fact that not eeveryone likes the same thing.

Anyways, this has just gotten dumb.

IF you all think im WRONG for liking SS gear, if you think i am getting listening fatigue when i know that i am not, then thats fine. go ahead and delude yourselves, obviously you know everything and have some sort of GOD like power to know that i get tired of listening to my crappy rig, cause i know i sure can listen to it forever without getting tired of it.

Why cant people just enjoy what they enjoy?

This is like a audiophile version of the christian crusades.

I like Dogs. I like Tbone Steak, I like fords, i like Budweiser, i like Blues, i like rock, i like reading, I like watching action movies. I like getting high and watching cheetas taking down gazelles on the discovery channel. I like working with my hands, i like drawing, i like scuplting, i like power tools, i like working out, and damnit, i like solid state amplifiers.

So, with that list, is there anything else im WRONG about liking?

I think im about done in this forum. I have all the respect in the world for tube gear, and i have all the respect in the world for your preference of tube gear. But im a SS man myself.

Peace! :)

Err, done in this thread... not forum

Cant get rid of me that easily! :)

Heheh, Slappy, no matter how many people slap you, you can't be kept down!

You're right, and I don't get it either, why do so many people need to convince others their own opinions are the correct one. Why does it matter? Listening to music is art, not science, and that's why how a component "tests" or how "accurate" it is is irrelevant to me.

For the record, I use both solid state and tubes.

Hey Slappy before you feel that you are about to be sentenced to the end of your natural life by a perpetual playing of "Pachebel's Canon" through a SET amp on a pair of high efficiency horn speakers by the SET sect of the Southern Branch of the Tube Lovers "audiophile crusaders", I would like to remind you of the following post which was in part reason for my LAST post which was in part directed for your benefit.

10-06-03: Slappy
"Its probably a lack of knowledge about tube gear.

When im able to get a good 2ch system ive been debating on going with Conrad Johnson Tube equipment, or going cheaper and buying a Krell 300i, Running some GMA Europas with either.

Im leaning more twards the Krell because i like/trust/know SS gear. I dont PREFER it because i never heard tube gear, but tubes gear looks like fun. Albeit, more maintenance is required, but im sure there is a payoff.

If i do end up getting some tube gear, i might very well opt to buy some bottlehead kits and do it that way. It would be a good learning experience and would get me into tube gear without going broke.
Ya know something, it never occurred to me that ss guys could be as passionate as tube guys."

Now Slappy, I'm gonna say it, I didn't realize you were so passionate about SS gear. If I had known this and hadn't been so ignorant in assuming that you hadn't heard the best that tubes have to offer since the above post of yours, I sure wouldn't have gone through the effort of sharing with you some of the things I really love about great tube gear and how truly great and involving it can be. Last thing in the world I'd ever want to do would be to offend or even worse convert someone so committed. Sharing a great experience to me is as enjoyable as the experience itself. Peace to you too dude.

Damn dude! Sure nailed the lid to that coffin! :)

Gunbei,

I have both a digital and a SLR camera. " I have the best of both worlds. As far as getting a neg or chrome to res up? The retoucher need not worry. I do it myself... A little work but so are tubes :)

Slappy, if your still reading. It is cool if you enjoy SS gear. I once employed a SS amp with a tube pre. Not to bad, in fact give it a try some time. The best of both worlds if you just cant decide.

You like the Bronocs? That's cool, but I like the Broncos Cheifs and the Raiders. In fact I like most NFL teams. I think most of the time I try to realize that these teams are actually men just like you and me. They get up, put their pants on and go to work. They probally turn on their tube system first thing ( sorry I couldn't resist )

Well actually I think most of them own high buck SS systems.

peace...

Slappy, 3 whole months ago you never heard a piece of tube equipment? That certainly puts your "well seasoned" viewpoint into perspective.

SS sucks while tubes swallow. What ever floats one's boat.

Jim2, give it up man, seriously.

i never said i was well seasoned with experience of tube gear, however, it did not take me a long time to decide i prefer solid state amplifiers. A friend of mine picked up a Manley Stingray that he had going to a set of thiels. It replaced a Krell that he had running. I think the Krell sounded better. I also heared some Cary tube monoblocks at a dealer about a month back. Diddnt really find them better than solid state either.

why is that so hard for you to grasp?

i NEVER EVER EVER said SS is BETTER than tube. i said that I, Slappy, Me. I preffer solid state.

read my posts and TRY to find me wrong.

i said I PREFER Solid State. PERSONAL PREFERENCE MAN! Why does it bother you SO much that i prefer something different than you?

Get over it dude. seriously. I dont really care if you agree with my preference. I dont sit here and bash you for liking tubes more than SS gear. Get a life

I like Miller, it's the champaign of beers.

Tastes great!
No! less filling.
Tastes great!!
No you idiot, less filling!!!

I remain,

Slappy, thank you for not cluttering my inbox with more profane emails.

Take care.

Diode-Why not just go for the real Champaign? Everyone knows all
those beers trying to taste like Champaingn are just wannabes! Spring
for the best and get the analog taste of REAL Champaign. Your friends
will admire you and, hey, the chicks really dig the tiny bubbles! I've had
some experience over the years comparing beer to Champaign....done
plenty of A/B/A testing just like Robert Harley suggests. I wouldn't
recommend doing such testing, if you haven't already, as I've discovered
Champaign and beer doesn't really go that well together. But let me tell
you, when it comes to bubbly beveredges, Champaign RULES. The
closest thing I've found is Pabst Blue Ribbon, but in the end Champaign
is still KING. Just my humble opinion, as well as being a bonified FACT.

Marco

...you too could be the proud owner of "the quality goes in before
the name goes on"......... -Tom Waits

Marco>>Could you expand on the "glowing phallus" part?!

And you like those magnum size "sparkling bottles" too!

Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.
I remain,

Clueless>>Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

Ah yes, but this just isn't one of those times my friend!

Marco